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> 917 engine pics, been looking for a 908...but its cool
r_towle
post Feb 6 2005, 08:28 PM
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what an amazing piece of mechanical enginering...

http://www.pbase.com/917carl/917_12_cyl_engine
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URY914
post Feb 8 2005, 10:36 AM
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Cool picture...


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eeyore
post Feb 8 2005, 10:52 AM
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The first run chassises, chassii -- frames -- were aluminum, magnesium came later. The orginal design also used the frame tubes for oil piping up to the front cooler. JWA did away with that the 2nd year of the car, and individually plumbed the oil lines.

The 16 was unfeasible because of weight and size. The length of the motor would have really changed the turning moment of the car, already sketchy under Piech's no wing 'drag is bad' philosophy.

Also, the 917's life was coming to an end under FIM rules. CanAm required a much better hp/ton figure which was only gained with turbos.

As for the length of the crank on the 16, that shouldn't have been a problem. On the 12s, power was taken from the crank at the middle of the engine. Crankwise, it was like havint 2 flat sixes end to end. They probably carried over this element over to the 16 as well.
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BigD9146gt
post Feb 8 2005, 11:08 AM
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Sammy, thats some pro- picking nutting giong on here (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif) . Honestly, i re-read my posts and i apologize if i came across rude. I need to use more (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) in my posts, cause i'm staight to the point, but not worked up about it either.

To your point about filling the chassis with air or nitrogen, i agree. (but you wouldn't want to fill it with air anyways because of possible corrosion properties. Purging it with the inert gas is a very good idea, and helium makes a great candidate. Hey, hydrogen's even lighter! To bad Porsche didn't work on the Hindinburg, they'd saved some lives with logic. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wavey.gif)
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Quilmes
post Feb 8 2005, 12:28 PM
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908 engine photo from Rennsport II Daytona


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Quilmes
post Feb 8 2005, 12:29 PM
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Here is one from a 917-30


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eeyore
post Feb 8 2005, 12:55 PM
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How much weight gets added in bungs, gauge and plumbing?
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andys
post Feb 8 2005, 01:51 PM
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QUOTE (BigD9146gt @ Feb 8 2005, 08:31 AM)
Sammy, now that makes sence to pressurize the tubes and have a gauge like Andy just mentioned. If a crack developed, then the pressure would leak out and the gauge would reviel that problem.

But just pressurizing a chassis isnn't going to make it lighter. They used helium because it was lighter than air, not because it made the chassis lighter.

Thanks for the input Andy (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wavey.gif) , I wish i was alive when all this racing went down... truly and era of fast Gods and the ability to stand 5 ft from them while doing 200+mph.

I didn't want to mention something based on vague recollection (the 30+ y/o memories), but it was said, at the time, it revealed cracks in the chassis'. That would be a pretty important bit of info in a 200+ MPH car! Perhaps it did serve a secondary purpose, like back filling with helium/argon for welding during the fabrication process.

Camping out at RIR was great fun, in those years. Did it many times; watched many races there. I really enjoyed the freedom of walking the pits, and literally rubbing elbows with some of the great's. Shelby, Donohue, Penske, Hunt (James), Mario, Unser, Fittipaldi, Foyt, Parnelli, etc; very casual atmosphere. Lot's of celeb's too. I ran many laps there in a Shifter Kart; great fun!

Andy
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davep
post Feb 8 2005, 02:08 PM
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The real reason that helium was used in the frame is that helium is the smallest molecule. That means that the smallest of leaks or cracks could be detected. Helium is often used for leak detection due to the small molecule size. Why not hydrogen? Well, hydrogen molecule is H2 whereas helium is He. That is helium is a single atom, and hydrogen is two atoms and hence much larger.
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URY914
post Feb 8 2005, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE (davep @ Feb 8 2005, 12:08 PM)
The real reason that helium was used in the frame is that helium is the smallest molecule. That means that the smallest of leaks or cracks could be detected. Helium is often used for leak detection due to the small molecule size. Why not hydrogen? Well, hydrogen molecule is H2 whereas helium is He. That is helium is a single atom, and hydrogen is two atoms and hence much larger.

I knew that. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)
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andys
post Feb 8 2005, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (davep @ Feb 8 2005, 12:08 PM)
The real reason that helium was used in the frame is that helium is the smallest molecule. That means that the smallest of leaks or cracks could be detected. Helium is often used for leak detection due to the small molecule size. Why not hydrogen? Well, hydrogen molecule is H2 whereas helium is He. That is helium is a single atom, and hydrogen is two atoms and hence much larger.

It hadn't occured to me, but this would be a good way to test the chassis for weld joint integrity by sniffing for helium (by using He detection equipment, of course (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) ). That said, it would seem to me pretty tough to maintain He pressurized in a chassis for very long. I've done a lot of He leak testing on welded SS and Ti devices for hermeticity, but never anything with welded alum. Anyone have experience with it?

Andy
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eeyore
post Feb 8 2005, 02:39 PM
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QUOTE (Sammy @ Feb 8 2005, 11:56 AM)
Oh great, we get a wild-ass discussion going and cloudbuster tries to screw it up by using logic.

Sorry. How about this for a mea culpa?

I heard that after a race, the crew would fill the chassis with oxy-acetylene at 100psi. Then they'd check every joint with a lighter. Any crack would become a mini blowtorch and weld the crack closed from the inside.
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physician
post Feb 8 2005, 03:26 PM
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the good thing about using helium is that you dont need fancy equpment to detect a leak... if your voice sound funny, there is a leak! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) mouhaha
nevermind..

i like the creativity in that (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)
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BigD9146gt
post Feb 8 2005, 04:07 PM
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I personally like how in the pictures of the 917 engine, they take a picture of Carl and his helper putting the heads/cam towers on... but its going on up-side down (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)
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r_towle
post Feb 8 2005, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE (URY914 @ Feb 8 2005, 03:10 PM)
QUOTE (davep @ Feb 8 2005, 12:08 PM)
The real reason that helium was used in the frame is that helium is the smallest molecule. That means that the smallest of leaks or cracks could be detected. Helium is often used for leak detection due to the small molecule size. Why not hydrogen? Well, hydrogen molecule is H2 whereas helium is He. That is helium is a single atom, and hydrogen is two atoms and hence much larger.

I knew that. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chairfall.gif)
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