FS: '74 914 Washington State, 2576 Type IV Turbo Options

[rtalich]

For Sale: 1974 Porsche 914
Hate to do it, but I’ve decided to sell my car mainly due to lack of interest. I simply can’t dedicate the time, effort and (most important) money into this car/project anymore. I’d really like to keep it, drive it… but I have to draw the line at some point and we just have too many other commitments.

A bit of History:
I’ve owned this car for about ten years and it has always been garaged. FWIW, I have previous owner records to prove this car was originally from Arizona so it has VERY little rust. Here’s a list of items I’ve done during the time I’ve owned the car:

No particular order:
• Rebuilt the 2.0 liter stock motor to a 2270 with a Raby kit. Jenvey TB’s and SDS EFI. With Tangerine Racing Exhaust.
• While motor was out, I had both trunks and engine bay Rhino lined.
• Replaced all four brake rotors, calipers, pads with PMB Performance parts and ATE Superblue Brake Fluid.
• 5 Lug upgrade and 16” Phone Dial wheels.
• Stripped interior and lined with Por-15
• Cleaned and reconditioned the fuel tank with Por-15
• Updated fuse panel
• Aluminum pedal board
• Swepco 201 gear lube

Current State of Car:
After I built the 2270 kit I started collecting parts to build a big turbo motor, 2576 to be exact. After about 3-4 years I had all the parts acquired but did not have the time to assemble so I solicited the expertise of Mark of Original Customs to build the beast. Here is a list of components that make up the build:
• Custom machined/clearance GA case. Clearance work done by Jake at Aircooled Technology.
• TDC (Thermal Displacement Coating) Engine case.
• Rotating assembly balanced by Jake at Aircooled Technology
• DPR 82mm Crank
• 9540 Cam
• Revmaster 38mm oil pump, full flow
• 100mm Turbo Nickies
• JE 100mm Piston, dished and coated
• 5.5” Type 1 H-Beam Rods
• Pauter Roller Rockers
• ChroMoly Pushrods
• Custom Billet Taco Plate
• DTM
• Garrett T3/T4 Ball-Bearing Turbo, TDC coated
• TurboSmart BOV
• TurboSmart Boost Tee
• Tial Wastegate
• Turbo prep’d LE 200 Heads
• Custom Exhaust, Tangerine Racing
• Custom intake plenums, M-Spec Racing
• Custom Fuel Rails, Extrudabody
• SDS EFI
• 70mm Ford Throttle body
• Kennedy Stage II clutch with six puck pressure plate
• Custom surround tin, Original Customs
• Setrab oil cooler with fan
• Motor build complete in July of 2012
• Install complete in August of 2013

The car is an absolute blast to drive!

What’s left to do:
While I had no plans of racing the car, it was destined to be my daily driver. So I had plans of installing a water/meth intake injection system to keep the intake temps in check. The car is drivable without this system in place due to the cooler weather we have around here but I wouldn’t push it until some sort of intake cooling system is in place. Like I said… daily driver.

I know that I will never get the amount I put into this car but we all know we are not in the hobby to make money, right. Just the turbo motor alone, in parts, I’ve spent at least $15,000. So, I’d like to sell the whole package for $18,500 $15k.

Thanks for looking. Pictures of the motor build can be found here, http://www.originalcustoms.com/invoice/images.php?p=143.
EDIT: Mark @ Original Customs has offered a discount to the buyer. See his post here.
-Rob

[rtalich]

Honestly... what is 'scaring' people away from even making offers on my car? I don't get it. Compared to some of these other cars that are posted... I know $15k might be too much for some people, but look at what you'd be getting. Offers? No jokers please. You can't even buy the motor alone for this price!!

Thanks for looking.

I think people are scared off by the complexity and the fact that it is a great build which is perhaps 85% finished...and with a car like this, the last 15% is the hardest.
The concept is killer, but can it actually be made to be a "DD" with this big four AND a turbo?

I have turbo experience (Miata's) and in a Miata, you can turbo under 6psi without an intercooler...but no one would ever recommend it or say it is the right way to go. You need the intercooler to lower the intake charge to prevent detonation and melting your pistons. The killer in a turbo engine is excess heat and a poor tune...too lean and you are bending rods. It appears that these are two problems that have not been figured out here (no intercooler and no real dyno time) and they are big question marks, and since you asked, this is what is scaring people off.

I myself think there is room for an intercooler somewhere, and might suggest a water to air intercooler, maybe mounting the heat exchanger in the front trunk and intercooler in the engine bay.

Is the intake charge really the issue? Or does the whole engine get too hot? These are probably the questions on other people's minds, I am trying to help by voicing them...so you can get your very very very cool car sold.

Agree with the above posts. 15k is a great price, but I think people(myself included) are worried that engine needs careful tuning and meth injection to make it safe. If you mess it up there are costly consequences. It's simply the fear of the unknown, as that engine and trunk have lots of hoses and wires to learn and sort out. Spend another 2k on it to get cooling and a tune...you can sell for full asking price. Especially on eBay.

Might help to offer the buyer some assistance on sorting the last needed details out.

I totally get where you are coming from and anyone with turbo experience (or mechanically inclined for that matter) should not be scared off by the ‘complexity’ of a turbo motor. There really isn’t anything complex about it. It’s simply just an induction system. Honestly, I think carbs are way more complex, but that’s just me because I’ve never messed around with them. But if I were to do my research and dive into them, I’m pretty sure I can figure it out. Same goes for this motor.

As far as being 85% complete… IMHO, that’s just a matter of opinion I guess at best. When I can, I’ve driven this car to work and it’s a blast!! It’s about 40 miles round trip, so it is drivable as it is. I guess the most important thing that people need to understand is that this motor (and I can’t say it’s true for all turbo’d engines) is not on boost all the time and so therefore does not generate the heat they are stereotyped for. The only time you see any boost is when you are moderately to aggressively accelerating from a stop and/or passing someone on the freeway. In any other circumstance it behaves and drives like any NA motor.

As far as maximum boost… you said it yourself and I’ve read/researched mainly air-cooled motors, a lot of useful information on shoptalkforums, if you keep the boost low (below 10 as a rule of thumb) you really don’t need any sort of intercooling or meth setup. If you want to see the full potential of this motor and most likely shorten its life span then go ahead and turn up the boost to whatever you like, but only then will you need to add intercooling and/or meth. But that was not my intention for this motor. It is completely drivable as it is and should live a long happy life! It’s probably similar to driving a car with nitrous (I never have but it’s what I imagine it to be like)… it drives and behaves like a NA 2.6 liter motor until you press on the go pedal, build up some boost, and it goes!! The go pedal is like the nitrous button and 8 or 9 psi is enough for me.

Tuning this motor is no different than tuning any other air-cooled motor. You must have an AFR meter/gauge, which I do. I did have it on a dyno and professionally tuned but my dyno time and results were cut short and inconclusive because the clutch I had in there kept slipping when I built up any boost. I since put in a stage II clutch with a more aggressive PP and got rid of the slippage. But since my only goal for the dyno was to get a decent tune I never went back to see what my actual HP numbers were.

Great discussion so far… keep the comments/questions coming. Something to also keep in mind and may be helpful/useful information to some. I had nothing to do with architecting this motor combination. I completely left that all up to Jake. From the turbo prep’d LE200 heads to the 100mm turbo V2 nickies. The only thing I told him was that I had a set of Pauter ratio roller rockers and a T3/T4 Garrett ball bearing turbo. And he put together a killer combo like he always does!! And then I had it built by another reputable person, Mark from Original Customs.

Hope this helps ease the minds...

[achman_73_2.0]

"There really isn’t anything complex about it."

I disagree. In theory it is simple but in practice it is not, really. Tune a carb wrong, and your car gets horrible gas mileage. Tune a turbo wrong and your rods bend or you burn pistons and blow a hole in your block.

"I guess the most important thing that people need to understand is that this motor (and I can’t say it’s true for all turbo’d engines) is not on boost all the time and so therefore does not generate the heat they are stereotyped for.

I'm actually just talking about the amount of heat that a large flat four generates, minus the turbo system. Heat is your enemy with any engine, and the turbo just complicates things.

"The only time you see any boost is when you are moderately to aggressively accelerating from a stop and/or passing someone on the freeway. In any other circumstance it behaves and drives like any NA motor.

I guess the most important thing that people need to understand is that this motor (and I can’t say it’s true for all turbo’d engines) is not on boost all the time and so therefore does not generate the heat they are stereotyped for."

Yes, that is generally true for all turbo motors, depending on how small or large the turbo is and what the goal for the engine is. Many modern turbo engines have very small turbos and begin building boost at 1200rpm, full boost by 2000rpm. This is to generate a lot of torque off the line which is what fat Americans like. It makes a slow car feel fast, but then runs out of steam at higher speeds.

My Miata started boosting at 200rpm, made full boost by 3400rpm and made power through 6500rpm. This was at 12psi, low to medium for a Miata. Without an intercooler, the intake charge would have been too hot, and the engine would have detonated and burnt my pistons, ruining the engine. OR, the computer would have retarded the timing, and my engine would have made no power. Either way, no fun to drive.

As far as maximum boost… you said it yourself and I’ve read/researched mainly air-cooled motors, a lot of useful information on shoptalkforums, if you keep the boost low (below 10 as a rule of thumb) you really don’t need any sort of intercooling or meth setup.

I'm not sure where you read this, but what psi you stuff into the engine really doesn't matter. That is just a gross generalization. You really need to worry about your IAC temps and the ability of your fuel system (computer) to maintain the correct A/F ratios to prevent detonation from running rich, or bending your rods from running lean. The problem with turbos is that there is a lot of misinformation out there, a lot of "I heard this" etc. and that leads to generalizations, and that leads to blown up engines. Yes, in a Miata, you can run 6psi of boost without intercooling. It can be done and is done. It's good up to about 160hp. I ran a supercharger for awhile at 6psi without an intercooler. It sucked though, at full boost in hot weather, the engine would ping (detonate) and if I drove it like that all the time, I would have blown the engine, in spite of what everybody said...with the turbo, intercooler, and a GOOD TUNE (not a "safe" tune, "aggressive" or "conservative" tune) the car made 247whp and 222tq with AFR of 11.5 at full boost, 14.7 on the highway and no knock. It was dead reliable. Took 1.5 hours by a known good tuner to do it.

dyno time and results were cut short and inconclusive because the clutch I had in there kept slipping when I built up any boost.

Then you don't have a good tune. You need 5-6 pulls to redline to get it right, at minimum, and then some street driving to round everything out. I am not familiar with your computer (aren't they used in airplanes?) but it has datalogging and mapping and that is all you need.

What is the point of me saying all this? The point is, I think your car is ABSOLUTELY BADASS and awesome. The engine is completely great, built correctly it seems by people who know what they are doing. I think it could absolutely be made to be moderately reliable and super quick. It is simply missing some sort of intake charge cooler, and a good tune. Do that, and prove it works, post the dyno results, and boom, I would be asking $20K for this car. I want you to get what you deserve out of this car.

And to anyone thinking of going turbo or buying this car, I would say go for it. The build looks good, you couldn't do this yourself, but you need cooling and a tune, and Corky Bell's book Maxumum Boost, and then you should be free to absolutely destroy Porsche Boxster S's on any road... GLWS