FS: '74 914 Washington State, 2576 Type IV Turbo Options

[rtalich]

Honestly... what is 'scaring' people away from even making offers on my car? I don't get it. Compared to some of these other cars that are posted... I know $15k might be too much for some people, but look at what you'd be getting. Offers? No jokers please. You can't even buy the motor alone for this price!!

Thanks for looking.

[achman_73_2.0]

Honestly... what is 'scaring' people away from even making offers on my car? I don't get it. Compared to some of these other cars that are posted... I know $15k might be too much for some people, but look at what you'd be getting. Offers? No jokers please. You can't even buy the motor alone for this price!!

Thanks for looking.

I think people are scared off by the complexity and the fact that it is a great build which is perhaps 85% finished...and with a car like this, the last 15% is the hardest.
The concept is killer, but can it actually be made to be a "DD" with this big four AND a turbo?

I have turbo experience (Miata's) and in a Miata, you can turbo under 6psi without an intercooler...but no one would ever recommend it or say it is the right way to go. You need the intercooler to lower the intake charge to prevent detonation and melting your pistons. The killer in a turbo engine is excess heat and a poor tune...too lean and you are bending rods. It appears that these are two problems that have not been figured out here (no intercooler and no real dyno time) and they are big question marks, and since you asked, this is what is scaring people off.

I myself think there is room for an intercooler somewhere, and might suggest a water to air intercooler, maybe mounting the heat exchanger in the front trunk and intercooler in the engine bay.

Is the intake charge really the issue? Or does the whole engine get too hot? These are probably the questions on other people's minds, I am trying to help by voicing them...so you can get your very very very cool car sold.

[rhodyguy]

What would a Miata owner, that didn't break the bank, use for some sort of intercooler that is readily available?

[matthepcat]

Agree with the above posts. 15k is a great price, but I think people(myself included) are worried that engine needs careful tuning and meth injection to make it safe. If you mess it up there are costly consequences. It's simply the fear of the unknown, as that engine and trunk have lots of hoses and wires to learn and sort out. Spend another 2k on it to get cooling and a tune...you can sell for full asking price. Especially on eBay.

Might help to offer the buyer some assistance on sorting the last needed details out.

[rtalich]

Honestly... what is 'scaring' people away from even making offers on my car? I don't get it. Compared to some of these other cars that are posted... I know $15k might be too much for some people, but look at what you'd be getting. Offers? No jokers please. You can't even buy the motor alone for this price!!

Thanks for looking.

I think people are scared off by the complexity and the fact that it is a great build which is perhaps 85% finished...and with a car like this, the last 15% is the hardest.
The concept is killer, but can it actually be made to be a "DD" with this big four AND a turbo?

I have turbo experience (Miata's) and in a Miata, you can turbo under 6psi without an intercooler...but no one would ever recommend it or say it is the right way to go. You need the intercooler to lower the intake charge to prevent detonation and melting your pistons. The killer in a turbo engine is excess heat and a poor tune...too lean and you are bending rods. It appears that these are two problems that have not been figured out here (no intercooler and no real dyno time) and they are big question marks, and since you asked, this is what is scaring people off.

I myself think there is room for an intercooler somewhere, and might suggest a water to air intercooler, maybe mounting the heat exchanger in the front trunk and intercooler in the engine bay.

Is the intake charge really the issue? Or does the whole engine get too hot? These are probably the questions on other people's minds, I am trying to help by voicing them...so you can get your very very very cool car sold.

Agree with the above posts. 15k is a great price, but I think people(myself included) are worried that engine needs careful tuning and meth injection to make it safe. If you mess it up there are costly consequences. It's simply the fear of the unknown, as that engine and trunk have lots of hoses and wires to learn and sort out. Spend another 2k on it to get cooling and a tune...you can sell for full asking price. Especially on eBay.

Might help to offer the buyer some assistance on sorting the last needed details out.

I totally get where you are coming from and anyone with turbo experience (or mechanically inclined for that matter) should not be scared off by the ‘complexity’ of a turbo motor. There really isn’t anything complex about it. It’s simply just an induction system. Honestly, I think carbs are way more complex, but that’s just me because I’ve never messed around with them. But if I were to do my research and dive into them, I’m pretty sure I can figure it out. Same goes for this motor.

As far as being 85% complete… IMHO, that’s just a matter of opinion I guess at best. When I can, I’ve driven this car to work and it’s a blast!! It’s about 40 miles round trip, so it is drivable as it is. I guess the most important thing that people need to understand is that this motor (and I can’t say it’s true for all turbo’d engines) is not on boost all the time and so therefore does not generate the heat they are stereotyped for. The only time you see any boost is when you are moderately to aggressively accelerating from a stop and/or passing someone on the freeway. In any other circumstance it behaves and drives like any NA motor.

As far as maximum boost… you said it yourself and I’ve read/researched mainly air-cooled motors, a lot of useful information on shoptalkforums, if you keep the boost low (below 10 as a rule of thumb) you really don’t need any sort of intercooling or meth setup. If you want to see the full potential of this motor and most likely shorten its life span then go ahead and turn up the boost to whatever you like, but only then will you need to add intercooling and/or meth. But that was not my intention for this motor. It is completely drivable as it is and should live a long happy life! It’s probably similar to driving a car with nitrous (I never have but it’s what I imagine it to be like)… it drives and behaves like a NA 2.6 liter motor until you press on the go pedal, build up some boost, and it goes!! The go pedal is like the nitrous button and 8 or 9 psi is enough for me.

Tuning this motor is no different than tuning any other air-cooled motor. You must have an AFR meter/gauge, which I do. I did have it on a dyno and professionally tuned but my dyno time and results were cut short and inconclusive because the clutch I had in there kept slipping when I built up any boost. I since put in a stage II clutch with a more aggressive PP and got rid of the slippage. But since my only goal for the dyno was to get a decent tune I never went back to see what my actual HP numbers were.

Great discussion so far… keep the comments/questions coming. Something to also keep in mind and may be helpful/useful information to some. I had nothing to do with architecting this motor combination. I completely left that all up to Jake. From the turbo prep’d LE200 heads to the 100mm turbo V2 nickies. The only thing I told him was that I had a set of Pauter ratio roller rockers and a T3/T4 Garrett ball bearing turbo. And he put together a killer combo like he always does!! And then I had it built by another reputable person, Mark from Original Customs.

Hope this helps ease the minds...

[mepstein]

Great explanation. Seems like a type 4 that has the best of both worlds and was designed and built by Pros. I like it

[rhodyguy]

We have a pt cruiser turbo gt ho. In the world of turbo chargers the one on the car is 'smallish'. Plain old driving around and freeway cruising it's about the same as any other na car. It wakes up at about 3.2k. People tend be a bit surprised at a charge thru 4th. Not like an on/off switch. With robs civilized boost level I imagine the car is predictable. Rob, take the car to the upcoming car show in snoqualmie. Detail it and put a for sale sign on it. Start @ $18.2k. At least your car will be out there. East side $$$.

But...more informative photos might help the cause. Rob could prob make out more than fine if he afford to put in a 2.0 fi with heat and sell the engine solo after a session on an engine dyno. But...that's more money

[rtalich]

We have a pt cruiser turbo gt ho. In the world of turbo chargers the one on the car is 'smallish'. Plain old driving around and freeway cruising it's about the same as any other na car. It wakes up at about 3.2k. People tend be a bit surprised at a charge thru 4th. Not like an on/off switch. With robs civilized boost level I imagine the car is predictable. Rob, take the car to the upcoming car show in snoqualmie. Detail it and put a for sale sign on it. Start @ $18.2k. At least your car will be out there. East side $$$.

But...more informative photos might help the cause. Rob could prob make out more than fine if he afford to put in a 2.0 fi with heat and sell the engine solo after a session on an engine dyno. But...that's more money

I'll see about getting out to the car show!! If we aren't camping that weekend.

[rhodyguy]

if you're going to busy i can show it for you. just give me the key. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[achman_73_2.0]

"There really isn’t anything complex about it."

I disagree. In theory it is simple but in practice it is not, really. Tune a carb wrong, and your car gets horrible gas mileage. Tune a turbo wrong and your rods bend or you burn pistons and blow a hole in your block.

"I guess the most important thing that people need to understand is that this motor (and I can’t say it’s true for all turbo’d engines) is not on boost all the time and so therefore does not generate the heat they are stereotyped for.

I'm actually just talking about the amount of heat that a large flat four generates, minus the turbo system. Heat is your enemy with any engine, and the turbo just complicates things.

"The only time you see any boost is when you are moderately to aggressively accelerating from a stop and/or passing someone on the freeway. In any other circumstance it behaves and drives like any NA motor.

I guess the most important thing that people need to understand is that this motor (and I can’t say it’s true for all turbo’d engines) is not on boost all the time and so therefore does not generate the heat they are stereotyped for."

Yes, that is generally true for all turbo motors, depending on how small or large the turbo is and what the goal for the engine is. Many modern turbo engines have very small turbos and begin building boost at 1200rpm, full boost by 2000rpm. This is to generate a lot of torque off the line which is what fat Americans like. It makes a slow car feel fast, but then runs out of steam at higher speeds.

My Miata started boosting at 200rpm, made full boost by 3400rpm and made power through 6500rpm. This was at 12psi, low to medium for a Miata. Without an intercooler, the intake charge would have been too hot, and the engine would have detonated and burnt my pistons, ruining the engine. OR, the computer would have retarded the timing, and my engine would have made no power. Either way, no fun to drive.

As far as maximum boost… you said it yourself and I’ve read/researched mainly air-cooled motors, a lot of useful information on shoptalkforums, if you keep the boost low (below 10 as a rule of thumb) you really don’t need any sort of intercooling or meth setup.

I'm not sure where you read this, but what psi you stuff into the engine really doesn't matter. That is just a gross generalization. You really need to worry about your IAC temps and the ability of your fuel system (computer) to maintain the correct A/F ratios to prevent detonation from running rich, or bending your rods from running lean. The problem with turbos is that there is a lot of misinformation out there, a lot of "I heard this" etc. and that leads to generalizations, and that leads to blown up engines. Yes, in a Miata, you can run 6psi of boost without intercooling. It can be done and is done. It's good up to about 160hp. I ran a supercharger for awhile at 6psi without an intercooler. It sucked though, at full boost in hot weather, the engine would ping (detonate) and if I drove it like that all the time, I would have blown the engine, in spite of what everybody said...with the turbo, intercooler, and a GOOD TUNE (not a "safe" tune, "aggressive" or "conservative" tune) the car made 247whp and 222tq with AFR of 11.5 at full boost, 14.7 on the highway and no knock. It was dead reliable. Took 1.5 hours by a known good tuner to do it.

dyno time and results were cut short and inconclusive because the clutch I had in there kept slipping when I built up any boost.

Then you don't have a good tune. You need 5-6 pulls to redline to get it right, at minimum, and then some street driving to round everything out. I am not familiar with your computer (aren't they used in airplanes?) but it has datalogging and mapping and that is all you need.

What is the point of me saying all this? The point is, I think your car is ABSOLUTELY BADASS and awesome. The engine is completely great, built correctly it seems by people who know what they are doing. I think it could absolutely be made to be moderately reliable and super quick. It is simply missing some sort of intake charge cooler, and a good tune. Do that, and prove it works, post the dyno results, and boom, I would be asking $20K for this car. I want you to get what you deserve out of this car.

And to anyone thinking of going turbo or buying this car, I would say go for it. The build looks good, you couldn't do this yourself, but you need cooling and a tune, and Corky Bell's book Maxumum Boost, and then you should be free to absolutely destroy Porsche Boxster S's on any road... GLWS

[Chris914n6]

Intercoolers are dime a dozen on Ebay, expect to pay about $150 new aftermarket. Or go used OEM like Saab, Nissan or Subaru for $50+. Rule of thumb is around 8 psi is when temps get into trouble area. But given the 914s poor airflow around back it would be tough to get it to contribute much.

My opinion is not that $15k is too high for the car, it's the $15k engine on a timer, and not a cheap rebuild if/when it happens.

The right buyer might be outside the forum.

[achman_73_2.0]

Smaller and easier choice might be a good water to air intercooler. Ebay intercoolers, well, sometimes you get what you pay for, sometime they are actually good...you just don't know. I still love the car...

[rtalich]

My opinion is not that $15k is too high for the car, it's the $15k engine on a timer, and not a cheap rebuild if/when it happens.

Looking at some of these other ads (I'm not going to be specific...) it's sort of amazing, really, the condition of some of these cars that people are trying to sell. I'm not saying mine is perfect, but it is in really great shape and I'm having such a hard time selling it just because it has a kick ass turbo motor. Not sure of the logic here. And the above comment about it having a $15k engine on a timer really does not make sense either. Are you saying turbo motors are time bombs? I drive a Ford F-250 Super Duty PU with a 7.3 Turbo Diesel motor... that on a timer as well?

The right buyer might be outside the forum.

That may be the case... sad but true...

Smaller and easier choice might be a good water to air intercooler. Ebay intercoolers, well, sometimes you get what you pay for, sometime they are actually good...you just don't know. I still love the car...

Yes. The kits from Frozenboost.com would work pretty well I think. But I will say it again... keep the boost low, like it is, you should not need to add any IC'ers.

[rtalich]

Here is a quick video I just took. Sorry for the poor quality as I had no copilot. I just wanted to capture a quick shot going thru a tunnel. Shifting from second to third you can hear boost build up then the blow off valve go off while shifting. Then in third it starts to build up boost again.

http://youtu.be/uz6Z9UoU7Cw

[achman_73_2.0]

I'll be completely honest, it seems to run pretty well. It doesn't die at idle, builds boost around 3300rpm, sounds good, obviously pulls nicely..

For anyone looking to buy this...I haven't seen the car in person or driven it...but I think with two hours on the dyno...this car could be one quick ticket. With a water to air intercooler and 12psi...Carrera fast...

[rhodyguy]

no snapping no popping no nothing. as noted nice idle. all i hear is power waiting to be unleashed. i think it's best left as is. my guess is it has plenty of go. why turn it in to a grenade and try to blow up $9k+ worth of parts (in boxes)? raise the price back up rob. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif) oh…wipe the dust off the dash. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

[rtalich]

oh…wipe the dust off the dash. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[rtalich]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif)

Thought I'd try this again. Slight update since my original post... I've installed a front mount cooler from Patricks Motorsports. Install information here: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...ooler&st=40

Still looking to get $15,000, or best reasonable offer and no trades.

-Rob

[matthepcat]

I really like this car. Did you end up installing a new lower front valence and shroud for the front mount oil cooler? Didn't see a picture of that.

[rtalich]

I really like this car. Did you end up installing a new lower front valence and shroud for the front mount oil cooler? Didn't see a picture of that.

Yes. I have installed a new lower front valence for the front cooler. I have the shrouds and louvered sheet metal that have not been installed yet.