Question for those of you with a digital CHT gauge Options

[era vulgaris]

What weight oil?

Brad Penn 20w50

[Mark Henry]

Ed are you running both the external and stock oil coolers?

I'm only running an external oil cooler. But with the tangerine remote kit, I have the block off piece which compensates the cooling airflow for there not being a stock oil cooler in place.

Personally, except for some full race situations, I wouldn't run an engine without a stock T4 cooler. The external cooler I'd only run on a thermostat controlled setup.

I've also never been a thick oil 20w50 fanboy, unless you live in an area of extreme heat, say constant 90*F+.
I use Delo 400 15w40

[era vulgaris]

Personally, except for some full race situations, I wouldn't run an engine without a stock T4 cooler. The external cooler I'd only run on a thermostat controlled setup.

I've also never been a thick oil 20w50 fanboy, unless you live in an area of extreme heat, say constant 90*F+.
I use Delo 400 15w40

So do you think I'd be ok going back to just a stock oil cooler? That whole external setup that's on the car was the PO's doing. I'd be happy to go back to the stock cooler, and eliminate all the associated oil line spaghetti.

My external cooler is thermostatically controlled. The tangerine kit has a junction box thing that doesn't allow flow to the cooler until oil gets to 180* to speed up warm up time. I have a pair of fans on the cooler that are also thermostatically controlled.

I don't have a thermostat or flaps, so I think going back to the stock cooler, I'd have longer warm up times. I'd have to track down a set of flaps and a thermostat. Do you have to drop the engine to install the flaps?

[worn]

For those of you who have a digital head temp gauge, what's your #3 cylinder temp after a good distance of highway running? Say like after 20 minutes between 3K5 and 4K RPM in 5th gear, or in the 70-80mph range?

Part of the reason I got my car with a 2270 for a proverbial song was because the PO was having serious issues with the engine running hot and I think he was a bit fed up with the car. I've spent a crap ton of time tuning the shit out of the carbs and engine, and also replacing a few sketch-ball parts he had on there. I can now run EZ-PZ in the 310-320F range on #3 all day long off the highway, up to 60 or 65mph.
But once I get on the highway and get above 70mph, my temps start climbing up into the 370's and even higher if it's an uphill grade.
I know it's a much greater load on the engine to push through the air at that speed, but the difference in temps seems abnormal. Or is it?

I'm wondering if the 916 bumper on my car might have something to do with it. Is it possible that the lower "splitter" part of the bumper is acting like an air dam, preventing cool air from getting under the car, and causing the temps to go up at higher speed?

Any insight is much appreciated! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

With a 2056 and a more aggressive build cam and compression my symptoms are exactly the same, probably driven by the energetic so of air movement. My solution was to run rich, but not much if any more than you. I also have a remote cooler plus the stock. If I don't run high viscosity oil I get the green light when revs hit 600 at a stop light.
More airflow sounds like the ticket,if you can get it.

[era vulgaris]

With a 2056 and a more aggressive build cam and compression my symptoms are exactly the same, probably driven by the energetic so of air movement. My solution was to run rich, but not much if any more than you. I also have a remote cooler plus the stock. If I don't run high viscosity oil I get the green light when revs hit 600 at a stop light.
More airflow sounds like the ticket,if you can get it.

I've never had issues with my oil light coming on. Even after extended highway runs, my idle psi is around 20. Where does your external cooler tie in if you also have a stock cooler?

Yeah, more airflow would be the key. Not sure how to make that happen! I've tried running without the rain tray, and it has no affect whatsoever on head temps.

[Dave_Darling]

I don't have a thermostat or flaps, so I think going back to the stock cooler, I'd have longer warm up times. I'd have to track down a set of flaps and a thermostat. Do you have to drop the engine to install the flaps?

You need the flaps. Really. I bet you'll find that #3 and #4 CHTs improve when you install them. Even if you don't hook up the thermostat, the flaps are needed to direct air to the correct places.

--DD

[Dtjaden]

Since you have ample oil pressure I would try a switch to 10-40 weight oil. This should drop your oil temps by 10 degrees or more and also have some positive effect on the head temp.

[era vulgaris]

You need the flaps. Really. I bet you'll find that #3 and #4 CHTs improve when you install them. Even if you don't hook up the thermostat, the flaps are needed to direct air to the correct places.

--DD

I'd read that before. Curious that one of the really well known engine builders among us that built my engine would leave them out. Unless the PO removed them for whatever reason, which honestly wouldn't surprise me. Can I install the flaps with the engine in the car?

Since you have ample oil pressure I would try a switch to 10-40 weight oil. This should drop your oil temps by 10 degrees or more and also have some positive effect on the head temp.

Cool, I'll give it a try at the next oil change. I'd read so many posts from guys like Raby and others who recommend 20w50, so I went with it. But I know from my experience with classic cars that you have to do what the car wants, not what you want, so I'll give it a try and see if it helps my head temps at all.

[Montreal914]

Post #16 says the stock oil cooler has been removed using Foley's kit therefore it's normal that the flaps are missing. The stock oil cooler air supply duct should also have been blocked by this bent aluminum plate shown in the picture.



You said in the beginning that you don't have issues with oil temp but I couldn't find any data. What are those temps with your setup having only the external cooler and where is it located?

From what I have read from a known guru, oil temp and head temp usually behave separately.

Interesting thread as I eventually plan on building a 2270. FWIW my current 2056 DD behaves pretty much like your engine.

[era vulgaris]

Yeah that's exactly what my setup looks like. This pic was from the PO, I assume when he was installing it. So you're saying that with the oil cooler take off kit I can't run the flaps? Even if they're just installed in the open position without a thermostat?
I obviously didn't install any of this, so I'm still learning the details of how this stuff got put on the car.
If I can't run the flaps with the external oil cooler, then that definitely makes me want to go back to a stock oil cooler setup and ditch the external one.

Oil temps are usually around 200 around town, give or take. They get a little higher after a while on the interstate, but not high enough to be of concern.

It sounds to me, from what Dave said, that my whole problem with head temps comes down to the fact that I don't have flaps.

[Montreal914]

Let's take a step back here. There are many ways to install a remote oil cooler and it is strongly recommended for any oversized engine. People in hot climate are also installing them on stock 2.0 engine if they tend to drive aggressively.

The easiest way is to put a sandwich adaptor with integrated thermostat between the engine and oil filter.



Or it can be setup in a full flow system where all of the pumped oil comes out of the engine and goes to a cooler via a thermostat.



The setup you have is another option developed by Chris Foley who is a very respected member here with a lot experience.

In the stock type 4 engine, a portion of the air going to the #3-4 cylinder bank is diverted to the stock oil cooler via the flaps. These flaps when connected to the cooling air thermostat will open or close managing the cooling air going over the cylinders and cylinder head. They will be closed at startup to allow engine to warm up. Once warm, they open and cool the engine.

Chris Foley's concept is to remove the stock oil cooler and use this portion of cooling air towards 3-4.

Since you don't seem to have any oil cooling issue, I don't see why you would want to do any modifications to you configuration. The flaps have been removed because they are not needed with CF's mod. It also means that you are 100% cooling your engine at startup which is something many of the CA people have been running for years. This cooling air thermostat was engineered for colder climates.

I hope this help in clarifying. I'm sure others will add what I've forgot...

[Dave_Darling]

You need the flaps. Really.

I'd read that before. Curious that one of the really well known engine builders among us that built my engine would leave them out.

I'm sorry, I did not realize that you had a setup that replaced the flaps. In that case, what you have is probably as close to optimal as we'll get at this point. If Chris designs and builds it, I'd put my trust in it.

If you didn't have the cover over the oil cooler location, then you'd have very significant problems...

And yes, we've had McMark (among others) post a difference from installing the flaps on a customer car.

You can install the flaps with the engine in the car. You need to remove the upper engine tin, which can be difficult to maneuver out (especially the left side; on my car the tin fouls on the dipstick tube and requires some gymnastics to unfoul it) and which requires removing a bunch of other stuff that's in the way, like intake and ignition and so on.

--DD

[era vulgaris]

Ah ok I gotcha. I misunderstood, I didn't realize the block off plate replaces the function of the flaps. Ok, that all makes sense now. I mentioned the tangerine block off plate earlier in post #16, but I don't know if "block off plate" is what it's actually called.
Yeah I'm familiar with how the flaps work. This is my 2nd 914 and I've driven ACVW's for years. I just wasn't sure if I was getting optimal cooling, because I didn't install any of this stuff on this car and didn't have my hands on all the bits to know exactly how everything was hooked up. But it sounds like I am, so I'll definitely keep it then. This is the most modified air-cooled car I've owned. I pretty much know my way around these cars inside out when they're stock, but I'm still figuring out how some of these upgrade/mod parts work and integrate with the car.
So I guess there's really not much I can do about the higher highway head temps then, is there?

[stugray]

Ah ok I gotcha. I misunderstood, I didn't realize the block off plate replaces the function of the flaps. Ok, that all makes sense now. I mentioned the tangerine block off plate earlier in post #16, but I don't know if "block off plate" is what it's actually called.

Officially the "block off plate" is the thick Aluminum billet plate that bolts on where the oil cooler used to be where the oil hoses plug in.

The flap that diverts the air that used to go over the cooler would be called something else. - "Cooler diverter cover"?

[Montreal914]

You mentioned that you have a 4 channels head temp gauge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It would be interesting to see data on the 4 locations as the purpose of Foley's design is to get more cooling on bank 3-4 which is partially deprived in a stock setup.

I think I remember reading in other posts temperature discrepancies among cylinders (stock cooling) in the range of 50 degrees or maybe event more. Others may have better data on this...

[era vulgaris]

Officially the "block off plate" is the thick Aluminum billet plate that bolts on where the oil cooler used to be where the oil hoses plug in.

The flap that diverts the oil that used to go over the cooler would be called something else. - "Cooler diverter cover"?

Aha, see I was using the wrong terminology! In my head that flap piece was "blocking off" the air from going the wrong direction.

Maybe we can get Chris to officially name it the "air flow diverter" or "air flow compensator"...or something along those lines (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You mentioned that you have a 4 channels head temp gauge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It would be interesting to see data on the 4 locations as the purpose of Foley's design is to get more cooling on bank 3-4 which is partially deprived in a stock setup.

I think I remember reading in other posts temperature discrepancies among cylinders (stock cooling) in the range of 50 degrees or maybe event more. Others may have better data on this...

I'll get some data next time I'm out. It's supposed to rain here the next two days, so I won't be doing any driving until at least Tuesday (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

But I can tell you from the time I've spent with this car that tuning has a lot to do with the discrepancies between cylinders. The carbs were horribly out of tune and horribly out of sync when I got the car. Couple that with the fact that the PO had stuck two paper intake gaskets together, and was using that as his intake manifold gasket on the 3/4 side rather than the phenolic gasket (which was on the 1/2 side, btw (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) ) and initially the 3/4 side was waaaay hotter than the 1/2 side. Before I touched anything on the car, I was hitting 380-390 on #3 cruising around town! No wonder the PO wanted to unload the car! Along with the car came a massive box of receipts, etc...and in there was also correspondence printed out between the PO and Chris Foley (there's a TON of Tangerine stuff on the car), where the PO is struggling with the head temps and was asking for advice. I think the PO just didn't know what to do.

But anyway, having taken care of all of those issue - proper phenolic gaskets on both sides, properly tune and balanced the carbs - the discrepancy is much less and my temps around town are fantastic now. It's just the highway temps that are the last piece of the puzzle for me on this car. But anyway, the bar graph on the gauge looks like an upward angled zig zag: starting with 1, then a downward zag to 2, then an upward zag to 3 (higher than 1), then a downward zag to 4 (higher than 2). So 3 is higher than 1 and 4 is higher than 2, and 4 is about in the area where 1 is...if that makes sense. Next time I'm out I'll toggle through each cylinder and get actual numbers.

[Elliot Cannon]

My engine is just a tad smaller. 76 crank X 96 bore. My CHT runs between 325 and 350 under most circumstances (on my VDO gauge taken off the #3 spark plug). Of course just a bit hotter at high speed and climbing hills which is to be expected. Make sure ALL the holes, slots and openings in the cooling shroud are plugged. I also push the rubber gaskets around the spark plugs "inside" the holes of the cooling shroud so they seal up better when the shroud is pressurized by the cooling fan. Not unlike the baffling in an air cooled aircraft engine, it's very important that ALL the air that comes out of the cooling shroud is used to cool the engine. This is just my opinion but I think cooling fans on an oil cooler only serve to restrict the flow of air through the cooler.

[ChrisFoley]

I wouldn't worry about the head temps at high load conditions until they go past 395. As long as they recover relatively quick there is nothing wrong with the setup.
After timing and air/fuel tuning there isn't much more you can do to control head temps other than making sure the shroud is well sealed as Elliot said.

[era vulgaris]

I wouldn't worry about the head temps at high load conditions until they go past 395. As long as they recover relatively quick there is nothing wrong with the setup.
After timing and air/fuel tuning there isn't much more you can do to control head temps other than making sure the shroud is well sealed as Elliot said.

That's good to know! They do recover very quickly. As soon as I get off the interstate, it's back down into the 320's by the time I'm sitting at the stop at the end of the off ramp.

I guess I'm good then. A lot of worry about nothing! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif)