Type 4 mechanical compression ratio, Why is the factory compression so low? Options

[DBCooper]

[b]In VW beetles, T4 upright fan conversions the DTM is the snizzle.
I built a DTM/Joe Cali/Stock T1 hybrid shroud for my '67 bug, it came out great, but in retrospect the amount of time spent on it I wish I has just bought a DTM.

You built a Cali shroud? From the time of the Usenet RAMVA groups? Man, you HAVE been around for a while, so hat's off to you. I still have an unused original Joe Locicero DTM kit in a box somewhere, before Jake took over, with Joe's own handwritten instructions. Good man.

[stugray]

It might have been lost in the thread:

If you want to study how to get 100hp/L, then look at the Toyota FA20 - 4cyl, boxer, NA, 86mmX86mm with 12.5/1 CR.

How does it get to 100hp/L without a turbo?
Direct + Port Injection

[Mark Henry]

[b]In VW beetles, T4 upright fan conversions the DTM is the snizzle.
I built a DTM/Joe Cali/Stock T1 hybrid shroud for my '67 bug, it came out great, but in retrospect the amount of time spent on it I wish I has just bought a DTM.

You built a Cali shroud? From the time of the Usenet RAMVA groups? Man, you HAVE been around for a while, so hat's off to you. I still have an unused original Joe Locicero DTM kit in a box somewhere, before Jake took over, with Joe's own handwritten instructions. Good man.

That original DTM by Joe would an OPP (Oregon Performance products).

I've also used FAT and Sharpbuilt shrouds in the past.

My all steel shroud.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-73-1403365366.jpg)

[DBCooper]

Yup, original OPP with Joe's handwritten instructions, in a box, never installed. He was a great guy. I used Sharpebuilt too, but never FAT.

Your Cali style is nice. You go to a VW show and walk past dozens of engines with slight variations, carburetors or whatever, then come to that Cali and people just stop. It's there, obviously, and it's right, but there's something about it that's wrong.... something wrong there... Crankfire too, very cool.

[Mark Henry]

Yup, original OPP with Joe's handwritten instructions, in a box, never installed. He was a great guy. I used Sharpebuilt too, but never FAT.

Your Cali style is nice. You go to a VW show and walk past dozens of engines with slight variations, carburetors or whatever, then come to that Cali and people just stop. It's there, obviously, and it's right, but there's something about it that's wrong.... something wrong there... Crankfire too, very cool.

And 46mm Tb's made from suzuki TB's (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[DBCooper]

Yup, original OPP with Joe's handwritten instructions, in a box, never installed. He was a great guy. I used Sharpebuilt too, but never FAT.

Your Cali style is nice. You go to a VW show and walk past dozens of engines with slight variations, carburetors or whatever, then come to that Cali and people just stop. It's there, obviously, and it's right, but there's something about it that's wrong.... something wrong there... Crankfire too, very cool.

And 46mm Tb's made from suzuki TB's (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Damn, old school! I didn't notice that, it really does look good. I have a set of GSXR TB's around here somewhere, lost the ITB itch and they were never installed. Probably in a box next to Joe's shroud. Going Subaru kind of changes that game.

[veekry9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmkKqVc2g0s

http://www.forestcitycastings.com/services-molds.php
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLAqtLWd3HI
http://dacedace.com/graphite-mold-castings.php
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiPQpiE4_qY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnDh1a0q_GI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw6cs7opvzA
http://www.agile-manufacturing.com/

Design brief:
1) air/liquid cooled hybrid
2) 3 valve
3) uses production valves.
4) meehanite-ex/bronze-int valve guides
5) pushrod activated roller tipped,rollercam
6) T4 headbolt pattern
7) canted valves
8) induction hardened seats
9) direct injection
10) dual plug

All of these details are desirable,but the pertinent question is,how many can you sell?
There are plenty of great stories of attempts and failures.
The impetus is improving on what came before,in some incremental way.

https://www.onshape.com/
https://www.tinkercad.com/

Make a cloud cad file,3d print the prototype,analyze the result,improve,cast the part,
machine 5X,assemble,prep,install,run.
All for <2K profit each set.
Hard to do isn't it?

https://www.google.ca/search?q=custom+vw+t1...wavNTQY-geuM%3A

/
http://www.apfelbeck.nl/
/
Reading through the comment sections.
However well you do making a great product or service,there will always be the naysayers.
Can't,won't,shouldn't and didn't are the words they use.
Read a book?Hell no,I can't,won't,shouldn't,didn't.
Pat them on their head in sympathy and
Send them on their way with a lollipop.
Sadly,they may procreate,great,more halfwits.
The effort they expend in negging other's labour and thought might better be used in an attempt at raising their own iq.

/

[veekry9]

http://www.amazon.ca/Air-Cooled-Motor-Engi...%2C+London+1961

Julius Mackerle: Air-Cooled Motor Engines, Cleaver-Hume Press, London 1961
Julius Mackerle: Air-Cooled Automobile Engines, The Institute of Mechanical Engineers, London 1961-2

As a start,for your own engineering library,to like,know stuff.
These are the books,thermodynamics as applied the the aircooled internal combustion engine.
Not sure if his later books have been translated.
A few of the designers of both the GM Corvair and the VW T4 perused these tomes.
A guy trying to make his own head might want the same knowhow,for like ideas.

[Mark Henry]

OK then....enough of the yakety yack...Build it!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

[veekry9]

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome...mposite%20metal

Something new this week,a new material with unique strength and conduction properties.
There are a few requisites other than the tools I've posted about above.
Again,this is no overnite sensation,a thorough examination of the demand for a T4 head is neccessary.
Pointless to make a part,or a car you can't sell,many have tried.
Now if it provided enormous benefits,why then,a few could be flogged.
Take a look at what the 911-4 Polo guy did,he created a demand by being perfect.
Illusions of instant gratification is rainbow dreaming.
It's not easy,otherwise everyone would do it.
Discussions of air/liquid cooled cylinder head design is what we're talking about.
The constraints as above define the geometry to some extent,which is why you would start there.
Coming up with your own set of poppet pipes is part of the fun,just like at work.
As for a schedule,I'm in no particular hurry,having done many years of hard deadlines in cnc machining.
Now a contribution by any number of wanna be engine designers is possible with the cloud based cad system.
A consensus of 97% of world wide 14 people might develop a reasonable part.
What features might be possible with a new material such as described.
A basic understanding of metallurgy is needed to 'get' this.

/

[Beebo Kanelle]

Thanks Veekry9! Found a 2nd edition (1972) on ebay and bought it!

and to Mark Henry, I'm still learning about the Type 4 - this is going to be a long process.

I've ordered the Bentley book as you suggested.

Wish me luck!

[Mark Henry]

Thanks Veekry9! Found a 2nd edition (1972) on ebay and bought it!

and to Mark Henry, I'm still learning about the Type 4 - this is going to be a long process.

I've ordered the Bentley book as you suggested.

Wish me luck!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=80872

[Mueller]

Design brief:
1) air/liquid cooled hybrid
2) 3 valve
3) uses production valves.
4) meehanite-ex/bronze-int valve guides
5) pushrod activated roller tipped,rollercam
6) T4 headbolt pattern
7) canted valves
8) induction hardened seats
9) direct injection
10) dual plug

All of these details are desirable,but the pertinent question is,how many can you sell?
There are plenty of great stories of attempts and failures.
The impetus is improving on what came before,in some incremental way.

https://www.onshape.com/
https://www.tinkercad.com/

Make a cloud cad file,3d print the prototype,analyze the result,improve,cast the part,
machine 5X,assemble,prep,install,run.
All for <2K profit each set.
Hard to do isn't it?

https://www.google.ca/search?q=custom+vw+t1...wavNTQY-geuM%3A

/
http://www.apfelbeck.nl/
/
Reading through the comment sections.
However well you do making a great product or service,there will always be the naysayers.
Can't,won't,shouldn't and didn't are the words they use.
Read a book?Hell no,I can't,won't,shouldn't,didn't.
Pat them on their head in sympathy and
Send them on their way with a lollipop.
Sadly,they may procreate,great,more halfwits.
The effort they expend in negging other's labour and thought might better be used in an attempt at raising their own iq.

/

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see him post about developing parts or engines for sale or profit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm all for trying to make a decent motor better, but I wouldn't get a second mortgage on my house hoping to make something revolutionary for such a small market.

[Beebo Kanelle]

Thank you, Mueller -

I just have some ideas that I want to try - if they work, great!

Right now, I am just learning everything thing I can about the Type 4 engine. Never have been interested in air-cooled engines until now - (In fact, my original intention was to buy a 914 and put in a hi revving LS w/boxster transmission - but I fell for the Type 4 and the quirky 901 after living with it for a few years)

If anything I do works - I'm sharing it with y'all - I'm in no mood to start another business. This is for fun.

Wish me luck!

Thanks again

[Mark Henry]

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see him post about developing parts or engines for sale or profit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm all for trying to make a decent motor better, but I wouldn't get a second mortgage on my house hoping to make something revolutionary for such a small market.

I know I'm just being a ass-wipe, I guess when I see the theoretical threads then weeks, months, years go by and it's still theorising, it just increases the gravitational pull of my bunghole.

Actually you make the exact point that I'm trying to convey in your second sentence. Build the frick'in conventional engine... build the frick'in 914.... get yourself some frick'in seat time.
THEN you will be enlightened as to what the 914 is about. It will at this point inspire you to invent the type 4 fluxcapacitor. OR you will find your inner peace in the yin and yang of how the 914, for all it's faults, still makes you at one with the twisties.

[veekry9]

That's the beauty of the freedom of free will,doing it your own way.
Every new idea has come about that way.
Thomas Edison's lightbulb,he did it by ignoring self tooting critics.
Wright brothers did it their way too.
Sikorsky was told many times to stop wasting his time.
Rickover sailed right past all the bs.
Elon Musk too is doing it his way,the sound of the bs talkers lost in the roar of the rockets.
One thing in common with all these achievers is the words can't or won't are meaningless.
So go ahead,do what you like,build your new Acme,and define your own future.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mark Henry]

That's the beauty of the freedom of free will,doing it your own way.
Every new idea has come about that way.
Thomas Edison's lightbulb,he did it by ignoring self tooting critics.
Wright brothers did it their way too.
Sikorsky was told many times to stop wasting his time.
Rickover sailed right past all the bs.
Elon Musk too is doing it his way,the sound of the bs talkers lost in the roar of the rockets.
One thing in common with all these achievers is the words can't or won't are meaningless.
So go ahead,do what you like,build your new Acme,and define your own future.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yes, but all those guys didn't just think and talk about it...they did it !

BTW Edison didn't invent the light bulb, he bought the rights and his team made the first practical incandescent light bulb.

[Beebo Kanelle]

Its getting done...

maybe not on a Canadian schedule and,

Mark, I'm sorry you're having problems with your bunghole but, it will not change my methodology - I know its tough being cooped up in the winter snow & ice in Canada
Here, its neither the land of 20 hour nights nor the midnight sun here... we acutally have a life, get out an work during the winter days.

But, I am not going to just hang crap on a engine and see how long it takes to fall off -

As Mr Raby says 'Its all in the combo" - I am going to finish the design calculations and simulate them on the computer... only then will I start building

If you look at the start of this thread, I was looking for the mechanical limits of the type 4 design, as I have have zero prior experience with it.

so, be patient and, like I said, if it all blows up, so be it. but if it works, I'll gladly share everything.

Thanks to all

[Bulldog9]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[cgnj]

Please let this thread die