Experienced V8 Guys, REALLY need some clutch help Options

[aircooledboy]

I am having a hell of a time getting my clutch set up (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif) , and now I am getting conflicting advice from Kennedy & Renegade. The problem is I like & trust the guys at both places so now I don't know what to do. I know there are plenty of you guys out there who have 901's mated to SBCs with out any problem, and I need your help here.

My problem is I cannot get the new parts I bought to work. There's more detail here, but this is the short version: I just bought a Stage III 9" KEP pressure plate and 9" Sachs organic disk. I have one washer under the pivot ball so that there is about 1/8" free play in the fork when the trans is mated to the engine. I can tighten the clutch cable so that the fork goes so far back when I step on the clutch that it hits the trans, but the clutch will not release all the way. I have had the trans in & out of the car 7 times making different adjustments, nothing helps.

Spoke to Scott at Renegade today, and he says those parts ain't gonna get it w/ a 901. Said the Stage III press plate is going to pull my pivot ball out of my trans eventually, and the Sachs disk won't work because it is too thick. Scott says I need a Stage II plate, and a kevlar disk, because the kevlar is thinner.

So I called KEP to tell them I need to send this stuff back and get the right parts. Dave at KEP says he's not in agreement with Scott that this stuff won't work. He was very nice and helpfull but he said: 1) he doesn't think kevlar disks are a good idea period, but shouldn't be neccessary anyway because 2) the pressure plate is engineered by them specifically for this application with this disk, and they work. He told me that they had a problem with their CNC setup briefly, and my press plate may have been made and sent out before they caught it, resulting in the friction ring on the plate being too think, and explaining why my clutch won't release. Dave then expressed concerns about my Renegade adaptor plate and the fly wheel I have and worried they might be creating problems too if they are not the right heights & thicknesses for the way their clutch is engineered. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif) KEP is willing to have me send the press plate back to them, and they will check it out, If they find a problem, they will replace it with whatever I want, but I got the feeling they won't take the disk back at all, and if there is nothing wrong the the press plate, they aren't exchanging that either. He even wanted me to send my flywheel, but I really don't want to pull it off again.

I know several of you guys have tons of experience with this, whereas this is the only one I have ever played with, so I have no frame of reference in sorting out who to believe. If you guys can offer some direction here, I sure would be grateful. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/pray.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[bondo]

What is Scott talking about? It's not a pull type clutch. (or at least it shouldn't be) That pivot ball is being pushed into the trans, not pulled out.

I would say get the measurements from KEP and check the pressure plate yourself. And measure the thickness of the adapter, and the dimensions fo the flywheel. Give these dimensions to kennedy, and they can tell you if it's ok.

You recently changed your crankshaft, right? Could the end of the crank stick out the back a different amount than the old one? Seems unlikely, but who knows.

[bondo]

I should mention that I'm extra interested in the outcome of this as I plan to run the same or a similar clutch. Either stage II or III, no kevlar. I already have the adapter plate (billet renegade), and I plan to get the rest from KEP (including the flywheel).

What are your thoughts on pedal effort of the stage III?

[airsix]

Scott's comments don't make sense (like bondo said). Listen to Kennedy. He knows what he's talking about and he stands behind his work (ie. he'll make things right). You should get complete clutch release in probably half the available fork travel. Be warned that you want to limit the fork travel - too much and you'll bust the diaphram in the pressure plate. It's already overstressed as it is. I'd send the pressure plate back to KEP for inspection.

-Ben M. (KEP stageII)

[aircooledboy]

You know what guys, you are right. Scott didn't say "pull it out". His exact words were "make a big hole in the side of your transmission". I said pull it out as short hand without thinking it through. My bad.

[914GT]

I have the KEP Stage III clutch. It was necessary to remove the washer under the pivot ball, use the bolts for the throwout bearing tube, and to bend the clutch fork slightly to get the maximum range without interfering with the case or the back side of the pressure plate. If you don't do these things you'll never get enough range to release the clutch. The stage III does need a little more effort but no big deal unless you're stuck in heavy traffic, then it can get to be tiring (well, so can any clutch I guess).

[aircooledboy]

Hey Royce, could you measure the distance the billet plate will space the trans out from the block. I have the cast adapter, and I was curious if that could be part of the problem. The cast plate moves the trans out 5/8", BTW.

[aircooledboy]

Guy, were you able to get free play by bending too?

[bondo]

QUOTE (aircooledboy @ Mar 24 2005, 06:46 PM)

Hey Royce, could you measure the distance the billet plate will space the trans out from the block. I have the cast adapter, and I was curious if that could be part of the problem. The case plate moves the trans out 5/8", BTW.

It spaces the trans back 0.665 inches. Just 0.04 in difference.. I wouldn't think that would be enough to throw things out of whack.

[aircooledboy]

QUOTE (bondo @ Mar 24 2005, 07:58 PM)

It spaces the trans back 0.665 inches. Just 0.04 in difference.. I wouldn't think that would be enough to throw things out of whack

Thanks bud. I had to measure mine in the car, and the tie down strap holding up the back of the engine was sort of in the way. So, mine might be exactly the same as yours.

[JB 914]

Scott Kline......Paging Scott Kline to the club for an urgent message (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

I think Scott Kline had the same problem with his setup. he had to remove the washer under the pivot ball. He swore i needed to on mine when i swapped my tranny, but, i showed him the washer was still on the tranny i replaced. did not have to remove it for mine.

[MecGen]

I have done a lot of clutches in my 20 years of this trade.
The times where I pulled the trans out more then twice,
was ALWAYS a bad new part. You might have a mixmatch problem. Send everything to KEP and get a strait answer,
then deside if you try to adjust/bend forks, or pay for a new clutch kit.
Its easy to spend other peoples money, but I think this is a good solution.
Regards
Joe

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[aircooledboy]

"No washers" was my first attempt, but it left me too much free play on the fork, and not much throw left once the bearing actually reached the p plate, so I put one in. reduced the free play dramatically, but even with pretty darn good throw, still won't release.

[bondo]

QUOTE (aircooledboy @ Mar 24 2005, 07:07 PM)

QUOTE (bondo @ Mar 24 2005, 07:58 PM) It spaces the trans back 0.665 inches.  Just 0.04 in difference.. I wouldn't think that would be enough to throw things out of whack Thanks bud. I had to measure mine in the car, and the tie down strap holding up the back of the engine was sort of in the way. So, mine might be exactly the same as yours.

Use a dial caliper, measure the overall thicknes, then the groove, and subtract. Quite accurate.

Here's a thought.. you've been told that the PP you have and the TO bearing are designed to work together. But what if you don't have the parts you think you have? If something is the wrong part but labeled as the right one you could be running around in circles forever.

[skline]

I cant help any, I have the setup that Renegade talked about. The kevlar disk with the Stage II. I had to remove the washer to get the clearance I needed. Otherwise it would hit on the PP. It works good now.

[aircooledboy]

QUOTE (bondo @ Mar 24 2005, 08:28 PM)

Here's a thought.. you've been told that the PP you have and the TO bearing are designed to work together. But what if you don't have the parts you think you have? If something is the wrong part but labeled as the right one you could be running around in circles forever.

possible with the p plate, but the TO bearing is a very unique 2 piece unit and there is no other one anything like it out there, as far as I know.

[914GT]

QUOTE (aircooledboy @ Mar 24 2005, 06:50 PM)

Guy, were you able to get free play by bending too?

Yes, I have adequate free play after careful bending and some trial and error mating the transaxle up to the adapter plate a couple times. I also did not have the pilot bearing quite deep enough into the crank which was causing some interference somewhere and not allowing the bellhousing to come up tight. I used my shop press to carefully bend the fork just a little at a time. It does not take much to make a big difference.

[aircooledboy]

Did you have to bend it up pretty close to the fork? When fooling around with this mess, I tried to bend a fork, and was having trouble getting the bend up close to the fork where it seemed to need to be.

[914GT]

QUOTE (aircooledboy @ Mar 24 2005, 08:48 PM)

Did you have to bend it up pretty close to the fork? When fooling around with this mess, I tried to bend a fork, and was having trouble getting the bend up close to the fork where it seemed to need to be.

No, I think it was in the middle near the pivot point. I'd put the fork in the press with each end on a plate, then bring the press down slowly where I wanted it to bend.

[mrihop]

Wow! I just bolted my clutch and stage II pressure plate I got from Renegade, put in a new throwout bearing, stuck the tranny on, and stuffed the engine assembly in and drove off!

The clutch works great, grabs good, and is the last of my worries when it comes to things breaking. I'm sure I'll destroy the 914 tranny before I have clutch issues. I've done plenty of driving in traffic and my left foot only gets tired after hours of traffic!

I've been told by a few people that stage III will push the pivot ball into the trans, then you readjust your clutch linkage (need to push that clutch farther in), then it pushes the pivot ball back more, and you keep repeating the process until the pivot ball just pops into the tranny!

I just looked at your other project thread, and you're using Renegade's old adaptor plate. They have a new billet plate that's a lot stronger and you may look into getting one.

If you want to continue using your Stage III PP, let us know of your success or issues!