Why EFI?, maybe excellence was expected and they came as close as they could.. Options

[Gunn1]

Did Porsche eff up?

No they didn't eff up, they did the best they could with the new technology they had. It seems as though the technology was purchased by the folks at Bosch from the aviation component of Bendix. That said most Injection systems were originally good at idle and full open throttle, so primarily racing applications. So in there infancy not well suited for automobile applications.

Been reading on different types of fuel delivery systems and their pro and cons.


There are very few con's to todays EFI systems, there were however performance and reliability issues with the original designs. Even today Claims of increased HP, Fuel economy, drivability, reliability and so on....some still dispute
how much these differences really mean. It appears the main thing EFI does extremely well over Carbs is in the pollution factor, or in this case the ability to pollute less. Carbs are a some what open system allowing hydro carbons to escape/vent in to our atmosphere even when the engine is at rest, where as the EFI is essentially a closed system releasing no vapors or gases unless the engine is running and those gases are then coming out of the tailpipe from the exhaust cycle.

Many of the Guru's (about 5 to 1) prefer carburation.

The above Statement isn't correct, although what confuses this OP is the sheer amount of photographic evidence on this site and others including evilbay and CL showing most engine compartments with Carbs installed. Many here have spent thousands on their cars, and what do you see when the lid is lifted? a Carburated engine..... So while my intentions will be keeping my cars in their stock or near stock form, with EFI, I cannot understand why so many Carburated cars. (Because its easy isn't an answer, because its simple isn't an answer and because its cheap isn't an answer)

With this being the case, Did Porsche mess up when they went the EFI route with the 914?


I do not believe they messed up, I believe they did the best they could with the available technology they had. Granted they did sort of use the end user as of a kind of a guinea pig/test bed, but what manufacturer doesn't in some way.

WHY DID THEY DO IT?????


I think that just as much as seeing the Ljet and Djet as a performance and platform to develop future EFI systems off of, Porsche and others also incorporated EFI into there products to show they were progressive company's in design and practicality.
EFI, Unibody, Targa, Mid engine, four wheel disc, and many more attributes can be cited as Porsches View into the future.

I would like to keep my car stock with the factory EFI, but increasingly getting more difficult to do with so little information backing it up.


Above statement is also incorrect. In my case I think I am fortunate because I believe I have most the parts needed to reinstall the factory EFI's on all three of my cars. There is a plethora of info on both sides, but for now.... just for originalities sake, EFI will be the way I go.

To those that added constructive comments and or facts to this thread... it is much appreciated...to those that took this thread as some sort of attack on their beliefs, or way to "clutter" the site, I can appreciate how you feel, but I just see those arguments as shutting down the free flow of ideas and the give and take of facts that get each of us to arrive at our own understanding of the information.

[Rand]

How many modern cars do you see with carbs? There are reasons they've all gone FI. There's plenty of information to back it up.

[Gunn1]

How many modern cars do you see with carbs? There are reasons they've all gone FI. There's plenty of information to back it up.

There is difference between the EFI's of today and the system used on the 914.

Most of what I am reading is saying the Carbs provide a better Low and High speed power band, many go on to say the only spot the EFI is better than the carbs is a small portion of the Mid range.

[colingreene]

Sure because the EFI was designed to run the motor in a stock or near stock configuration.
When the motor is built to those specs it will run better than it could on carbs.
Carbs are just a easy "Cheapish" way to build a performance motor and get fuel into it.
Really the right way will always be to run electronic fuel injection.
You can do so so so much more and have the car run 1000x times better than you ever could on carbs.
So for the 914 the reason people go to carbs is its cheap and easy compared to re engineering the fuel injection system to properly run a large motor.

[Rand]

There are too many variables depending on the build of the engine to just give an absolute answer. That's why I was speaking to the technology of carbs vs FI in general.

If you build an engine that gets out of the scope of stock FI, there are programmable aftermarket FI solutions that can match or exceed the performance of carbs while preserving all the benefits of FI.

[Mueller]

Did Porsche eff up?

No, everyone was going fuel injection and electronic fuel injection at the time one way or another.

Been reading on different types of fuel delivery systems and their pro and cons.

Many of the Guru's (about 5 to 1) prefer carburation.

Please site source, I call BS on that one, maybe back in the 70's and 80's when mechanics didn't really understand EFI and it was hard to tune it. Tons of high end V8 builds are EFI along with the import guys.

With this being the case, Did Porsche mess up when they went the EFI route with the 914?

No, they didn't. Fuel injection can compensate for things carbs cannot do as well even with the older stuff. They are in business to sell cars, people want to climb in and turn the key and not have to worry that the system was tuned for sea level and now they traveled up to the mountains and things are screwy.

WHY DID THEY DO IT?????

I would like to keep my car stock with the factory EFI, but increasingly getting more difficult to do with so little information backing it up.

Do you just make shit up? Various books on the older systems, plenty of websites on how they work, people that offer rebuild services and hard parts.

[ConeDodger]

I'm wondering how old your reference is. Carbs are dinosaurs that will always have a compromise somewhere in their tuning spectrum while EFI is no longer really inflexible and limiting...

[Gunn1]

Did Porsche eff up?

No, everyone was going fuel injection and electronic fuel injection at the time one way or another.

Been reading on different types of fuel delivery systems and their pro and cons.

Many of the Guru's (about 5 to 1) prefer carburation.

Please site source, I call BS on that one, maybe back in the 70's and 80's when mechanics didn't really understand EFI and it was hard to tune it. Tons of high end V8 builds are EFI along with the import guys.

With this being the case, Did Porsche mess up when they went the EFI route with the 914?

No, they didn't. Fuel injection can compensate for things carbs cannot do as well even with the older stuff. They are in business to sell cars, people want to climb in and turn the key and not have to worry that the system was tuned for sea level and now they traveled up to the mountains and things are screwy.

WHY DID THEY DO IT?????

I would like to keep my car stock with the factory EFI, but increasingly getting more difficult to do with so little information backing it up.

Do you just make shit up? Various books on the older systems, plenty of websites on how they work, people that offer rebuild services and hard parts.

This is from one of those well respected services you mentioned below.

See all the made up Shit Below

"Will your engine make more peak power with EFI??
More than likely the answer to this is NO. At high RPM and wide open throttle carburetors really work well; so well that it has been hard for us to make more power with EFI on the dyno than a well tuned set of craburetors. The benefits to EFI occur at lower speeds in the form of drive-ability enhancements and torque boosts. This may defy what you've read somewhere else, but it is the fact concerning our own engine program.

Too often people buy into EFI for the wrong reasons, they have a perception that it'll cure all their problems and that it'll be easier to tune and work with than their current Carburetors. I hate to break it to anyone, but if you can't understand or effectively grasp the Carburetor concept enough to tune them you certainly won't be able to work with EFI."

Is it any wonder very few people want to inquire and ask questions here, when you
reply to people in that fashion.

[Rand]

Like Mueller said, please cite the source. And the build details. Otherwise the quotes are meaningless. (We'll tease him about spelling later. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) )

Are you talking about your engine, or something non-stock that is purpose built? You have to keep the build in mind when you reply with stuff like this.

Thicken your skin a little if you think this is hard fashion. We are discussing your topic with the interest in getting accurate information to the light.

[Gunn1]

Like Mueller said, please cite the source. And the build details. Otherwise the quotes are meaningless.

Thicken your skin a little if you think this is hard fashion. We are discussing your topic with the interest in getting accurate information to the light.

Maybe you should not make such knee jerk reactions accusing people of making shit up.

Asking someone to thicken their skin is BS, it excuses bad behavior.

I would say if you cannot reply and ask for more info instead of making false accusations don't reply at all.

The quote and info on the previous post came from the RABY air cooled technologies site.

I suppose I made that up too.

[Steve]

Most of us respect Jake. If your building a budget uncomplicated race motor than carbs are nice, but take a look at all the modern race cars. Do you know of any engines running carbs at Lemans this year or any major race? Except maybe redneck nascar.
I never take the advice of one person. I google the question and compare the multiple responses.

[Gunn1]

Most of us respect Jake. If your building a budget uncomplicated race motor than carbs are nice, but take a look at all the modern race cars. Do you know of any engines running carbs at Lemans this year or any major race? Except maybe redneck nascar.
I never take the advice of one person. I google the question and compare the multiple responses.

Thank you for the reply

[Rand]

Like Mueller said, please cite the source. And the build details. Otherwise the quotes are meaningless.

Thicken your skin a little if you think this is hard fashion. We are discussing your topic with the interest in getting accurate information to the light.

Maybe you should not make such knee jerk reactions accusing people of making shit up.

Asking someone to thicken their skin is BS, it excuses bad behavior.

I would say if you cannot reply and ask for more info instead of making false accusations don't reply at all.

The quote and info on the previous post came from the RABY air cooled technologies site.

Please tell me the difference between your engine, and a raby engine. Maybe that will help you get it.

I suppose I made that up too.

What I would value is if we could get on the same page. That's all. Dude, relax a little and get in the vibe we are trying to help you with.

Once again, you are taking things out of context and you have ignored my previous questions. If you want to read them again and offer relevant replies, we'd have something to go on.

[ClayPerrine]

Most of us respect Jake. If your building a budget uncomplicated race motor than carbs are nice, but take a look at all the modern race cars. Do you know of any engines running carbs at Lemans this year or any major race? Except maybe redneck nascar.
I never take the advice of one person. I google the question and compare the multiple responses.

NASCAR went to Fuel Injection in 2012.

Inside NASCAR: Fuel injection a 'really big step'

[Zimms]

The benefits to EFI occur at lower speeds in the form of drive-ability enhancements and torque boosts.

Jake's comment is based on running at the max. His statement that you posted above even states that EFI is better at low end / regular driving conditions.

I think the biggest confusion is how you started this topic. Looking at two 40+ year old systems you are going to find some +'s and -'s. Current EFI tech in the last 10 years has made it much more common place. Cheaper than a set of carbs? No. Better performance? 100%, unless you are Jake, who can tune a carb in his sleep.

Did Porsche eff up? Everybody starts somewhere, and the technology available for EFI then versus now is a whole different world. Look up when they started to develop their PDK that everyone raves about now. 1986 Derek Bell that almost lost the championship hated it. 2015 Derek Bell has a different impression:

Derek Bell Interview

Technology is a bitch.

[McMark]

Many of the Guru's (about 5 to 1) prefer carburation.

Not sure where you got that info. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

IMHO, carbs and FI are just different ways of getting fuel into a motor. FI offers a level of resolution that is impossible with carbs, but they're still just adding fuel to air. All things being equal, they're about the same from a performance standpoint. Any guru that doesn't know the value of either option isn't much of an expert.

Did Porsche screw up? No. FI works fantastic.

[Steve]

Most of us respect Jake. If your building a budget uncomplicated race motor than carbs are nice, but take a look at all the modern race cars. Do you know of any engines running carbs at Lemans this year or any major race? Except maybe redneck nascar.
I never take the advice of one person. I google the question and compare the multiple responses.

NASCAR went to Fuel Injection in 2012.

Inside NASCAR: Fuel injection a 'really big step'

Thanks Clay!! I thought so, but wasn't going to take a chance in my response. Pretty sad that it took them until 2012 to switch to fuel injection.
I put a Weber on my 75 sirocco back in 76 and then dual webers on my 2.4 liter 1971 914-4 back in 1980 and then dual webers on my 2.7 six in my current 1975 914 back in 1986. For that last 16 years I have been running a stock 3.2 in the same 914 with the stock fuel injection. Lots of pros and cons, but I would never switch back to carbs

[Amphicar770]

Who are these gurus you are referring to?

Open up Hot Rod or any other performance car magazine. Unless originality is desired, even the owners of old Detroit iron are ditching their carbs for EFI systems to gain both performance and reliability.

While the d-jet system has its shortcomings, carbs are dinosaur technology.

Perhaps one day someone will offer a more modern, plug and play EFI for the 914 but even in today's world I have to wonder who the 4 out of 5 gurus you refer to are?

[Rand]

If you enjoy touching your starter in any weather condition and your motor purrs to life with a nice idle, and you can start driving any time after. You have FI.

If you enjoy being able to drive in different elevations and your car behaves the same. You have FI.

The thing is, you're all over the map. You have a stock engine with FI, you are quoting Raby builds, and you are spewing irrelevant information with no substance about all the questions we ask about your application.

Be straight. Do you want results from a particular build? Otherwise, I guess I'll enjoy the drama with you.

[Mueller]

"Will your engine make more peak power with EFI??
More than likely the answer to this is NO. At high RPM and wide open throttle carburetors really work well; so well that it has been hard for us to make more power with EFI on the dyno than a well tuned set of craburetors. The benefits to EFI occur at lower speeds in the form of drive-ability enhancements and torque boosts. This may defy what you've read somewhere else, but it is the fact concerning our own engine program.

Too often people buy into EFI for the wrong reasons, they have a perception that it'll cure all their problems and that it'll be easier to tune and work with than their current Carburetors. I hate to break it to anyone, but if you can't understand or effectively grasp the Carburetor concept enough to tune them you certainly won't be able to work with EFI."

See what I highlighted?
That is what why the factory used EFI. The fuel injection evolved through the years and what company doesn't want to be with the times?

They didn't build the /4 cars for max performance to be held at WOT for peak power. I'm sure the race cars used carbs, and those that didn't use carbs (the sixes and bigger engines used mechanical fuel injection which is too expensive and complicated for a street car sold to the general public.)

They could have easily done the carb thing with a more aggressive cam but they wanted to build daily drivers. (I think they offered dual single throat carbs on the 1.8s in Europe, might be the setup like the 1.8 in the classifieds right now)

Your post comes across as if attacking Porsche for using fuel injection which leads me to believe you are biased against it so no matter what I or anyone else writes you still won't like it and you'll still think Porsche compromised and made a mistake.

Yes, many cars had been converted to carbs by shops and owners, some due to needing the carbs due to modifications, others due to being more familiar with carbs (nothing wrong with that, I took the D-Jet off of an older 2.0 914 I had and replaced it with L-Jet because I know and like it better)

Did Porsche make a mistake by ditching bias ply tires for radials?