Why EFI?, maybe excellence was expected and they came as close as they could.. Options

[theleschyouknow]

My car is a US California car, so its stock wasn’t 100HP. US spec GA 2.0 engine: 91 HP @ 4900 rpm is the figure measured by the U.S. standard SAE
In Europe the HP figure is measured by DIN which is 95 HP @ 4900 rpm for a U.S. spec GA 2.0 engine.
As I’m in Europe our Dyno measures HP in DIN, so I haven’t lost any HP at all, but thanks for asking!

Since you're in Europe, thanks for leaving out the (somewhat important) detail that your car has a US spec engine ...
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PS: Do you still have the CA smog equipment installed? Are you using the stock exhaust and stock heat exchangers?
Because if not, the 95HP @ 4900rpm is not a correct baseline to measure against. To quote your own words "eggs with eggs".

Sir Andy,
I'm not looking for a fight here.
As I said earlier my car is stock apart from the carbs, including stock exhaust and heat exchangers. The smog equipment came off the car as part of the FI removal.
That's all.
As for neglecting to to say it is a US spec car, it was you who assumed it was european, then chastise me?
My build thread and introductions on this forum show quite clearly it's a US car, photos of it in Desert Hot Springs CA and its importation to UK are well documented and it's listed on the register on here.
Why do I have to keep on making justification for every post I make on this forum?
It just creates fear to post by those who are less thick skinned than me.
Somd914, I agree with you, that would be the best comparison ever.
My reason for posting in this thread was to try and add some fact on why emissions drove the carb to FI move in our 914 and to in some way satisfy the OP without all the tit for tat that ensued over the first 4 pages.
Like anyone breaking up a fight, seems both sides have turned on me now. Hey ho.

before I say anything (and I guess I probably shouldn't if I have preface it with a qualifier) thank you for posting your dyno results whether or not there is a FI comparison it is good info.
I am not a admin advanced or guru-member just a regular guy who has only had my car for a couple of years and I'm not itching for a fight or trying to belittle you or anyone in any way but...

really? you fear posting on this board? really? what are you afraid of? how many of these guys have you met (me only a handful and they were all super cool to me and I know I've posted my share of moronic questions/comments) do you think they will come to your house and beat you up or kick you off the board or ?

again please no one take offense but often all of us need to take a step back, if you or me or anyone posts something they think is earth-shattering info or even mildly interesting or relevant to whatever discussion and it receives less than your desired response -who cares?!?

if someone responds with something that ruffles your feathers (it is very difficult to either write or read tone) read around it (for instance you could skip the first 3 sentences of this post) for the info contained within very few posts on here are just flame jobs with no info contained within

I'm glad you're on the board Darren hell I'm glad everyone here is here because we all love these cars and the collective can keep them on the road much longer than any individual alone, especially me!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
cjl

[MarkV]

The fastest way to start an argument on a 914 board is to post anything that has to with carbs vs injection.

My previous car was a 74 L-jet car and it ran great but was always unreliable and left me stranded a couple of times. I was always able to diagnose it and get it working again with out a problem but I would rather drive my car than work on it.

My current car came with a set of Dellorto 40s. They were never set up correctly by the previous owner and didn't work very well. The first thing I did was track down a D-jet system with the intention of converting it back. Before I converted it I took some advice from here and changed the vents from 28mm to 34mm,installed smaller idle jets, bigger main jets & smaller air correctors. Didn't take much of a learning curve to get the car running really well. I also spent some time sorting out the anemic Bosch ignition. The car runs great and more important than that to me it is dead reliable. I haven't messed with the settings on the carbs in years. It starts all of the time and it runs at a pretty consistent 275 degrees. I would love to have injection but If it isn't broken why fix it. If there was some kind of turn key modern injection system that I didn't have to build myself I might consider converting it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif)

[Darren C]

Thanks cjl, I'm not fearful, I just said some others with thinner skin may be put off.
Hell, I got a 2 week suspension last month for posting what I thought. No fear here!

[SirAndy]

As for neglecting to to say it is a US spec car, it was you who assumed it was european, then chastise me?

Yes, you live in Europe. Silly me for assuming someone living in Europe would have a European car. What was i thinking?
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[rhodyguy]

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[914_teener]

FWIW: Using the factory measurements from 30 years ago (taken on who knows what equipment and averaged over a number of engines) and comparing to new measurements is really irrelevant. Heck, dynoing your car on one dyno then driving down the street to use another isn't even a good comparison. The only relevant comparison is against a single dyno because no two share the same calibration, etc. The only thing you are really guaranteed is repeat-ability, assuming you are using a quality device. When dynoing a car you really should be looking at the shape of the curve and relative comparisons between changes, not the peak HP/torque number

To me it's quite impressive [and lucky] that Darren's plots are anywhere close in magnitude to the factory numbers. Note that the Dyno Dynamics one that Darren is showing plots from is an extremely well-regarded eddy current device which is very repeatable. It can also hold engine speeds/loads constant to produce really nice curves unlike inertial dynos which are much more common (at least in the USA).

It shouldn't be surprising that you can get better peak numbers on a carbed car than D- or L-jet car when just thinking about fuel mixing. Assuming both allow the exact same amount of fuel at a given time, fuel atomization from the carb will be much better. The Bosch fuel injector nozzle design is archaic compared to modern injectors.

That wasn't the context of the OP. "Did Porsche eff up?" The decision to go that way was made back the the 1960's. So yea...compared to modern injectors...they don't compare. But that was then. Now is now. The OP want to know "what is the best way to go". I'd assume that means now.

Even Jake who I consider has given a wealth of info and has contributed a lot here says either will work fine. Given you have the ability to tune it yourself. So...go for what you know. If not, then get out your wallet to pay someone else...carbs or EFI probably won't matter at that point.

I've had both carbed and EFI cars of several varieties. I kept the D-Jet on my car because that's what it came with. I know how to tune it. It is a highly reliable system and my car fuel mixture is right on the money. From a component standpoint it can be complicated as Jake mentioned. If I was in business...I wouldn't recommend it....too many call backs.

Some great discussion about carbs here but I'm wondering if the OP has decided which "way" he will go?

IMHO for street with a 2056 done right w-Djet....means cam...tuning...ect..can't
be beat from a smile/cost perspective and seat of the pants perspective. Most bang for the buck.

Carry on.

[914_teener]

As for neglecting to to say it is a US spec car, it was you who assumed it was european, then chastise me?

Yes, you live in Europe. Silly me for assuming someone living in Europe would have a European car. What was i thinking?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Andy,

That'll be decided on the 23rd (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

[GregAmy]

That's probably why it's $150 an hour for roller time!

But I see they kick in the use of a big ass fan for the radiator airflow...

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[Darren C]

Look guy's,

I've got outta my seat and spent hard cash to obtain some (what I consider anyway) good information then willingly shared it free for the world to see on here.
I am asking nothing in return.

I'm not taking sides on the Carb v FI debate.

The data simply shows how jet sizing in a 914 with retro fitted carbs effects:

Air Fuel Ratio (and consequent mpg)
Driveability through rev range shown as torque
and Horsepower.

Whilst showing that factory HP & Torque specs can be met, by having to compromise on mpg.

I searched previously for some hard data, and basically came up with just strong opinions, so sought to obtain impartial facts that can be used to illustrate what's going on when you swap jet sizes, and the quirks in the graphs that you might not necessarily have predicted in response.

That's all folks......

[somd914]

Somd914, I agree with you, that would be the best comparison ever.
My reason for posting in this thread was to try and add some fact on why emissions drove the carb to FI move in our 914 and to in some way satisfy the OP without all the tit for tat that ensued over the first 4 pages.

Darren C,

I was just attempting to point out that even if you ran a stock, well running D-Jet 2.0 on the dyno, comparing your dyno numbers to this stock engine would not prove one way or another as there are too many variables changing in the engine that can't be easily quantified, and thus the discussion would not be resolved. It was not meant to be personal.

As for FI and emissions, agree emissions played a role but here in the US carbs were used up until around 1990. But I was attempting to point out that many factors (both internal and external) come into play (such as emissions) in the design of any product, and that has to be considered.

[injunmort]

this is the stupidest thread i have ever seen. from op question to the responses. i have been flamed for many of my query. this is a tough group, but at the end and beginning, is the central question posed by somebody that does not have basic understanding of fuel delivery whether fi or carbs, let alone how those systems work. i think rabys response covers the controversy pretty eloquently.

[ConeDodger]

this is the stupidest thread i have ever seen. i think rabys response covers the controversy pretty eloquently.

Huh, and yet "this is the stupidest thread (you've) ever seen... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[Gunn1]

Thanks to everyone for contributing to this thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I do apologize if I ruffled some feathers, but really appreciate all of the technical data and opinions that were given on both sides. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

Honestly did not know the Carb versus EFI question was Taboo. (I saw nothing in the rules about not being able to discuss it!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

If I would have simply posed the question, Carbs or EFI?....... how many responses do you suppose the post would have gotten? probably not all that many, and the responses would probably have been more of the yes/no/very little and general informational replies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

On the other hand by asking the same question only in a more provocative manner, it likely elicited many more in depth responses with a great deal of expanded information, actually more information than I ever thought. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

As for my personal choice, for now I'm going to go with the stock EFI. Probably use the carb set up on one of my other 1.7 or 1.8 liters in a V rod setup, but that's another subject. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

Hope I didn't upset to many of you, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif) I can say one things for sure you are all quite knowledgeable and very passionate about your Cars, what's in them and I am glad to be able to take part in it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

In the future I will do better regarding the question and how it is posed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Thanks again

[injunmort]

hey corndogger, blow me , yeah it is

[Steve]

Now that we beat this dead horse (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif), its time to move on to 4 versus 6!!
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[injunmort]

your right, is it a hate crime or terrrtism? what if its both?

[Steve]

IBTL
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[Gunn1]

this is the stupidest thread i have ever seen. i think rabys response covers the controversy pretty eloquently.

Huh, and yet "this is the stupidest thread (you've) ever seen... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Your welcome to your own opinion, but The fact there were so many replies with really great data proves anything but it being The stupidest thread you've ever seen.

Just because people disagree doesn't mean their point of view is stupid

[injunmort]

you are the op , obviously you are a retard, corndoggfhohole, a retard, where we going with this ?

[rhodyguy]

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