Why EFI?, maybe excellence was expected and they came as close as they could.. Options

[Mueller]

Mostly do to the advent of personal computers, by the mid 90's we began to see programmable EFI and the shift slowly began as wrenches became more tech savvy.

One thing as a builder that has always made me laugh is peeps so obsessed with peek HP numbers. To me the number is irrelevant for many reasons, foremost being the dyno operator and what correction factors he arbitrarily decides to use.
In a street car I don't give a poop what you claim (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) your HP numbers are, torque is king.

Give him time, he'll find a guru saying carbs create more torque over EFI (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[moorepower]

Carburetor = controlled fuel leak.

[JmuRiz]

Give him time, he'll find a guru saying carbs create more torque over EFI (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2sQJPZYSoUI

Even a self learning EFI needs more tuning to beat a tuned carb (on the dyno)
Even these guys couldn't deny the EFI advantages.

If I could get ITB EFI for the price of my good webers, i'd trade in a second.

[Gunn1]

Lots of experience here and I can make both systems work well.
I can make carbs purr like kitten, but they will never work better overall than FI.


Porsche had to build consumer engines with a high degree of reliability, so yes they left a lot of HP on the table. Really this is no surprise that they do this as every single manufacturer does this.
Engines must start in all kinds of weather, FI adapts to conditions, altitudes, g-forces, be fuel efficient, etc.

In WW2 the benefits of FI were evident, Spitfires couldn't pull negative G's, the pilot had to flip the plane. In a dogfight it was no problem for a ace, but many novices died from this issue. The 109 pilots didn't have to worry about carbs.

Early systems had little wiggle room for performance and most wrenches had little knowledge on how FI worked so carbs were an easy off the shelf solution. Because carbs worked so well, most wrenches got lazy and didn't even want to know about the basics of FI, even how to service a stock system.
Mostly do to the advent of personal computers, by the mid 90's we began to see programmable EFI and the shift slowly began as wrenches became more tech savvy.

One thing as a builder that has always made me laugh is peeps so obsessed with peek HP numbers. To me the number is irrelevant for many reasons, foremost being the dyno operator and what correction factors he arbitrarily decides to use.
In a street car I don't give a poop what you claim (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) your HP numbers are, torque is king.

Thank for the response Mark Henry.

Your reply along with a few others is all I was looking for, not asking the question because I already Know, Not asking because I am trying to create drama, Not asking to make things up.

On my first car I am thinking which way to go, I have the complete EFI for the engine, and I do have a complete solex setup as well, Being I am more inclined with carbs than EFI and I plan on doing the work myself, I wanted some opinions on which was "Better" before I have to spend more $'s to go the EFI route.

The question was did Porsche eff up, in other words did they mess up by putting on a EFI when the a Carb setup may have been better (didn't some of the European models come with carbs stock?)......Nothing more nothing less.

I have rebuilt many carbs set many float levels replaced many jets. so while not carb expert as many are here, I know enough to where I can make it work. The EFI on the other hand I have very little practical knowledge with this type of system.

Perhaps that is why I asked the question I did.

What I cannot understand is why I get all the smart ass comments, and PM's (you know who you are) telling me to back off on a specific subject matter, or that im giving to much time to a specific subject, and I need to stop.

So instead of jumping on my and others cases and making all kinds assumptions as to my age, whether or not I'm a Trol (not sure what that means), or whether I'm making something up, the thickness of my skin, etc., you could have replied like Mr Henry and the few others that did. With a common sense approach and answers to both type systems.

If my skin was so thin I would not reply at all......this is just as much my forum as it is yours. if you don't like the topic don't respond, Pretty easy.

In closing, I believe if you were to reread this entire thread you would answer the question posed by another members thread wanting to know where all the female members went. Many times women are Much smarter than Men, they wont hang around a site, where they know if they ask a question, rather than getting multiple answers and ideas, they get questions related to their character.

Thank you

[Mueller]

It is they way you ask...or at least perceived by others.

Again, the asking if Porsche screwed up makes 0 sense and makes it look like you are trying to pick a fight.

There was no massive recalls or problems like when Chevy converted a gas motor to diesel (or Olds I guess) or when Chevy introduced the Vega with an aluminum block with no coatings on the cylinder walls. So yes, Chevy messed up.

[RacingDreamz]

Jesus dude, OU812, chill out man. You remind me of a guy I used to know who would do too much coke and argue any and every point he could just to argue!

FI is better. This from an owner of a 2270 with dual DRLA40'S. I'm sick to death of waiting for my carbs to warm up so I can drive, and I'm seriously contemplating selling my car because of it, and taking a reduction in HP to find a stock djet car. I just want to be able to turn the key and drive. No, I don't think Porsche screwed up at all.

I have a stock EFI we're thinking of selling or trading. If interested in trading your 2270, let me know.

[Amphicar770]

Wow. OP needs to get over himself.

You made a bold assertion backed up by the thinnest of "facts". Most everyone disagreed with you so you react like an angry, drunken "truther". When you have dug yourself into a hole, the first key to getting out is to stop digging. Let it go and move on with life. If you really want to put a carb on you car then go ahead, no one really cares.

[914_teener]

Lots of experience here and I can make both systems work well.
I can make carbs purr like kitten, but they will never work better overall than FI.


Porsche had to build consumer engines with a high degree of reliability, so yes they left a lot of HP on the table. Really this is no surprise that they do this as every single manufacturer does this.
Engines must start in all kinds of weather, FI adapts to conditions, altitudes, g-forces, be fuel efficient, etc.

In WW2 the benefits of FI were evident, Spitfires couldn't pull negative G's, the pilot had to flip the plane. In a dogfight it was no problem for a ace, but many novices died from this issue. The 109 pilots didn't have to worry about carbs.

Early systems had little wiggle room for performance and most wrenches had little knowledge on how FI worked so carbs were an easy off the shelf solution. Because carbs worked so well, most wrenches got lazy and didn't even want to know about the basics of FI, even how to service a stock system.
Mostly do to the advent of personal computers, by the mid 90's we began to see programmable EFI and the shift slowly began as wrenches became more tech savvy.

One thing as a builder that has always made me laugh is peeps so obsessed with peek HP numbers. To me the number is irrelevant for many reasons, foremost being the dyno operator and what correction factors he arbitrarily decides to use.
In a street car I don't give a poop what you claim (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) your HP numbers are, torque is king.

Thank for the response Mark Henry.

Your reply along with a few others is all I was looking for, not asking the question because I already Know, Not asking because I am trying to create drama, Not asking to make things up.

On my first car I am thinking which way to go, I have the complete EFI for the engine, and I do have a complete solex setup as well, Being I am more inclined with carbs than EFI and I plan on doing the work myself, I wanted some opinions on which was "Better" before I have to spend more $'s to go the EFI route.

The question was did Porsche eff up, in other words did they mess up by putting on a EFI when the a Carb setup may have been better (didn't some of the European models come with carbs stock?)......Nothing more nothing less.

I have rebuilt many carbs set many float levels replaced many jets. so while not carb expert as many are here, I know enough to where I can make it work. The EFI on the other hand I have very little practical knowledge with this type of system.

Perhaps that is why I asked the question I did.

What I cannot understand is why I get all the smart ass comments, and PM's (you know who you are) telling me to back off on a specific subject matter, or that im giving to much time to a specific subject, and I need to stop.

So instead of jumping on my and others cases and making all kinds assumptions as to my age, whether or not I'm a Trol (not sure what that means), or whether I'm making something up, the thickness of my skin, etc., you could have replied like Mr Henry and the few others that did. With a common sense approach and answers to both type systems.

If my skin was so thin I would not reply at all......this is just as much my forum as it is yours. if you don't like the topic don't respond, Pretty easy.

In closing, I believe if you were to reread this entire thread you would answer the question posed by another members thread wanting to know where all the female members went. Many times women are Much smarter than Men, they wont hang around a site, where they know if they ask a question, rather than getting multiple answers and ideas, they get questions related to their character.

Thank you

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into ...

I Goggled this....pasted it above.


I order to get replies....the WAY your posts read speak to this, in my humble opinion. Maybe it doesn't bother others. I'm somewhat ambivalent. I can always put your posts on ignore.

Glad that you know how to work on carbs. If you decided that you want to learn about D-jet this place is a great place to learn, and if you want to put carbs on a Type IV there are quite a few folks here that also know a lot about carbs too.

I try to let information inform ME as to my decisions I make....not the other way around.

[gereed75]

OU, reread your first post that starts with "why did they do it?? did some one mess up" and then adds ....WHY DID THEY DO IT?????

Oh the horror!!! Why oh why did they do it??

Everyone knows they did it because EFI was the emerging state of the art and met the emissions requirements where carbs had no chance. For all these reasons it was "better".

Did it make more horsepower?..no. They werent concerned with that.

Is it the best for you??...who knows.

But it was certainly not a screw up and to even suggest it was a bit absurd.

That is what got the conversation off into the weeds.

By the way, even though I really like to hear the great noises that come from my triple weber set up (and think the popping, sniffing and wailing is certainly part of the allure of the early air-cooled sixes), I am working to finish an EFI/ITB set up so I can see just how great of a motor an early six can be when it is really optimized - with modern EFI and spark management. Just like Jake did when he was really trying to optimize a Type IV and the customer was willing to pay for it.

I would not bother putting on D-Jet, or even CIS. They were both somewhat lethargic induction systems and compromises limited by the technology of the times, but screw ups?? C'mon

So if you want a somewhat tempermental motor that will probably have snappier throttle response and maybe make a few more HP, go with carbs (and the right cam). If you want a smoother more efficient and gentile motor, and like originality, go stock injection. Your choice, neither is a "screw up".

[Gunn1]

Wow. OP needs to get over himself.

You made a bold assertion backed up by the thinnest of "facts". Most everyone disagreed with you so you react like an angry, drunken "truther". When you have dug yourself into a hole, the first key to getting out is to stop digging. Let it go and move on with life. If you really want to put a carb on you car then go ahead, no one really cares.

There you go again...............

When you have to call people names and bring there Character into question, it proves you have no argument.

Its obvious there are some that understood my question and replied in kind.

I cannot help it if you and some others want to read something sinister into it.

Like I said before if you don't like the way I pose a question or start a post, you don't need to comment.

Buy the way I saw a nice Amplicar on Lake Minnetonka today, he was just driving down the landing ramp at Lord Fletcher's we watched it launch. Wasn't able to get very close but it looked like a 10+

[Gunn1]

OU, reread your first post that starts with "why did they do it?? did some one mess up" and then adds ....WHY DID THEY DO IT?????

Oh the horror!!! Why oh why did they do it??

Everyone knows they did it because EFI was the emerging state of the art and met the emissions requirements where carbs had no chance. For all these reasons it was "better".

Did it make more horsepower?..no. They werent concerned with that.

Is it the best for you??...who knows.

But it was certainly not a screw up and to even suggest it was a bit absurd.

That is what got the conversation off into the weeds.

By the way, even though I really like to hear the great noises that come from my triple weber set up (and think the popping, sniffing and wailing is certainly part of the allure of the early air-cooled sixes), I am working to finish an EFI/ITB set up so I can see just how great of a motor an early six can be when it is really optimized - with modern EFI and spark management. Just like Jake did when he was really trying to optimize a Type IV and the customer was willing to pay for it.

I would not bother putting on D-Jet, or even CIS. They were both somewhat lethargic induction systems and compromises limited by the technology of the times, but screw ups?? C'mon

Didn't all of the query's end in question marks?

Seriously I don't know enough to make a blanket statement like that.

But certainly car companies do screw up....and I was simply asking if Porsche did with 914 by going with the EFI instead of carbs?

Shows you how much I have yet to learn, but didn't most if not all the sixes,911's and 912's come with carbs? If EFI was so great back then why wouldn't they have installed EFI on its whole model line?

Just so no one gets there nuts in a sack, please notice all the statements above are Questions and not statements of fact.

[gereed75]

Didn't all of the query's end in question marks?

Seriously I don't know enough to make a blanket statement like that.

But certainly car companies do screw up....and I was simply asking if Porsche did with 914 by going with the EFI instead of carbs? [/quote]


Short answer,..... no, not even close


Shows you how much I have yet to learn, but didn't most if not all the sixes,911's and 912's come with carbs? If EFI was so great back then why wouldn't they have installed EFI on its whole model line?



Carbs were gone for FI by 1970 except in the six (only because they had 1969 911 motors to get rid of) and all electronic by 1973.5 (except in the "high performance/track" 911 that still got MFI). Early EFI was not great but no where near a mistake.




Just so no one gets there nuts in a sack, please notice all the statements above are Questions and not statements of fact.
[/quote]

[TheCabinetmaker]

"Like I said before if you don't like the way I pose a question or start a post, you don't need to comment. "

Like you said before, we all have an equal right to post what we feel here, and the admin have a right and duty to delete when it gets out of hand.

I'm wondering if you might be boning up for a debate team meet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[gereed75]

"Like I said before if you don't like the way I pose a question or start a post, you don't need to comment. "

Like you said before, we all have an equal right to post what we feel here, and the admin have a right and duty to delete when it gets out of hand.

I'm wondering if you might be boning up for a debate team meet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Is there a "still digging" emoticon?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ConeDodger]

Did Porsche eff up?


No, most definitely not. They were required to meet emission standards and this was part of the effort. Depending on the context, the answer could go either way. Full on racing? Carbs in an unsophisticated engine, but as the engine gets more sophisticated, there is no way for carbs to be used. They simply lack resolution and stability. Look at some of the new high horsepower cars like the Hellcat or the Camaro SS. If you asked the engineer if he considered carbs to get more horsepower, you would never forget the "are you really that stupid?" Look you would get.

Been reading on different types of fuel delivery systems and their pro and cons.

Many of the Guru's (about 5 to 1) prefer carbs


In what context? Are we talking about race cars? Street cars? Most of us actually 'drive' our cars between 2500 and 3000 RPM. In many cases, if it were carbs, this is right at the transition off of the idle jets. If you actually knew what your A:F ratio was doing at that point, you wouldn't ask this question. EFI is so much better where we actually drive it isn't even a contest. If you're driving around at WOT, maybe carbs but really, who drives around at WOT all the time?

With this being the case, Did Porsche mess up when they went the EFI route with the 914?


No. No. No. And before you bring up the carbs in other countries argument again, they weren't required to meet the emission standards as soon in the other countries. Carbs are infinitely cheaper than EFI.


WHY DID THEY DO IT?????

Because it would have been stupid not to.


I would like to keep my car stock with the factory EFI, but increasingly getting more difficult to do with so little information backing it up.

You're looking at the wrong information. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

By the way, the guy you're arguing with so vehemently? He works in a top secret government project laboratory. You're in over your head... Sorry.

[Bulldog9]

Yes ladies and gentlemen, we have a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif) in our midst. This guy ping'd the Troll meter on his first post. Confirmed here. I wont give it the dignity or a response other than (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[bandjoey]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

[Gunn1]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

Thanks

[TheCabinetmaker]

"I would like to keep my car stock with the factory EFI, but increasingly getting more difficult to do with so little information backing it up.

Seriously? No information? Have you tried a search here on djet? There are days worth of reading on the subject.

[Gunn1]

Yes ladies and gentlemen, we have a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif) in our midst. This guy ping'd the Troll meter on his first post. Confirmed here. I wont give it the dignity or a response other than (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

And your a senior Member? Must have some erectile dysfunction issues... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif)