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> Gauging interest, 914-6 fiberglass engine tin
'73-914kid
post Jul 16 2016, 11:29 AM
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Trying to gauge interest in selling sets of raw amber (with the correct yellow resin tinting) 914-6 engine tin. I have an opportunity to buy a set of molds, and figured since I was interested in a set, others would be too. The current stuff you can buy from rennspd has too much green tint In the resin, and looks wrong to me.

Sets would all be clear gelcoat, hand laminated fiberglass, with flexibility is what thickness people wanted. All fasteners would be aerospace grade riveted floating nut plates, and the tin would come fit with holes already drilled. Was also considering making the front tin piece in two pieces to allow it to be removed with the fan still on the engine, and the engine still in the car.

I could also use carbon instead of glass if someone would be so inclined.

Pricing would start at $390 a set for raw amber fiberglass. This may go up or down depending on the quality of the molds, which I'm not 100% on yet.

So, is there a market for this stuff, or are people content with the steel tin that is already actively used on most conversions?
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colingreene
post Jul 16 2016, 11:37 AM
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Sounds ok to me.
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ConeDodger
post Jul 16 2016, 12:51 PM
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Mine from Getty Design is just as you describe and is $419.00 so there must be a market for it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
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mb911
post Jul 16 2016, 01:34 PM
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Just an fyi I know restoration design is introducing steel factory copys so not sure if that factors in price point?? I would definitely consider it when it comes time to buy for my project.
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mepstein
post Jul 16 2016, 01:42 PM
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glass looks cool but it is so fragile. our guys hate when they have to work on an engine with glass parts because everything takes 3X as long to do. look at it wrong and it cracks and then who's fault is it.
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'73-914kid
post Jul 16 2016, 01:48 PM
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Cost was not a driving factor for considering making these. I want a set, and my dad wants a set, so it seemed reasonable that others would to. The $390 was a rough cost estimate based on supplies and time, but the goal is not to make money.

At the end of the day, I might be able to get them into the $200's for forum members.

This is the color that it will be. Doesn't get more authentic.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/farm8.staticflickr.com-9714-1468698516.1.jpg)
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Scott S
post Jul 16 2016, 01:49 PM
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Mine were from Getty as well. fit was awesome less one block off, which they promptly replaced. I love that look. Good luck with the upstart. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I always wondered what the -4 engine tins would look like in the amber glass....


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'73-914kid
post Jul 16 2016, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Jul 16 2016, 12:42 PM) *

glass looks cool but it is so fragile. our guys hate when they have to work on an engine with glass parts because everything takes 3X as long to do. look at it wrong and it cracks and then who's fault is it.


It's all about local ply buildup around fasteners and other areas that would be considered "stressed". I think with careful material buildup localized cracking can be prevented and/or mitigated.

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Mark Henry
post Jul 16 2016, 03:17 PM
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So on these shrouds is it basicly one layer of S glass?
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914_teener
post Jul 16 2016, 03:51 PM
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What about 2 liter tin Ethan....?

I'd be interested.
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Chris914n6
post Jul 16 2016, 07:06 PM
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$400 for a fiberglass piece that size tells me there is not much of a market. I'd estimate you would not get much past breaking even, given the handful of established providers.

You might be better off time and energy wise just buying someone elses.
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'73-914kid
post Jul 16 2016, 09:09 PM
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QUOTE(Chris914n6 @ Jul 16 2016, 06:06 PM) *

$400 for a fiberglass piece that size tells me there is not much of a market. I'd estimate you would not get much past breaking even, given the handful of established providers.

You might be better off time and energy wise just buying someone elses.

Not really looking to make a jump into the market as a supplier. I want a set, my dad wants a set, and I figured some forum members might be interested in glass tin ware that was actually the proper color.

Not trying to make this a new business, just trying to help Forum members out, which would help break up the tooling costs..
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0396
post Jul 17 2016, 12:36 AM
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Sounds like a very interesting objective.
As for the possible "market pool" ,the more it looks original and with a decent price point, your going to have a market
How large will be partial projection on current pool of enthusiasts/engine builders.
Some will say its cool, but will not walk the talk.
Look at Rothsports offering..it says to call for price. I would love to have a set from them, but is afraid of the reply of say $2000.
If I was not selling off my parts stash...I would be interested in a set for a 3.6 vram. Once it's installed,it's all covered up..as for difficulty of working on it, it's part of the equation... Good luck with your efforts.
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Realcarfreak
post Jul 24 2016, 09:28 AM
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There are not many sources for a good racing style shroud and matching look surrounding tin. I think there would be a good market for the block off on top of a 964/993 3.6 shroud.

I have done a fair amount of composite work in my spare time.

If I could offer just a little advice to save you some time and hopefully improve your rate of success.

Anyone can wax up and slap some fiberglass into a mold. You will get a low quality part that, well, people will feel is worth less $. To create a much higher quality part, that is lighter, stronger, more stable dimensionally, and cosmetically more appealing, I would suggest the following:

1 - Consider using epoxy resin instead - Less smell around the house, better heat resistance of the final part, and less shrinkage or warping that can still happen days after you remove it from the mold. You also gain the ability to use other specialty cloth like kevlar or carbon fiber. Epoxy resin is more expensive versus regular vinyl ester resin. Epoxy Resin also comes in different ratios of hardener to resin. They have different applications, but check with your supplier for guidance. Also working with epoxy, one must be more careful with the measurement proportions when mixing. Too far off ratio in either direction can result in a failure. Think jello one way and really brittle on the other side of wrong mix. So suppliers might recommend a ratio pump, scale to weigh portions, or careful measurement cups, depending on how much of it you are doing.

2- Look into vacuum bagging. with a traditional hand layup process, you wax the mold or apply a release agent like PVA. Then you spray or apply your gelcoat or top layer of resin. Next, you wet out your cloth/mat and place into the mold. Then you roll out the air bubbles and ensure proper coverage. you must be careful to ensure the part thickness is even and that the cloth or mat to resin ratio is consistent. A part with too much resin and not enough of the reinforcing cloth or mat will be heavier than it needs to be for the same given strength.
But with vacuum bagging you follow the same process, but place the mold into a bag while the resin is still wet and draw a vacuum. This places a consistent pressure from the outside to hold the cloth in place from all directions, helps remove any trapped air bubbles, and (my favorite part) help remove excess resin which gets sucked out and into a reservoir before it can get to the pump.

I believe that with all the detailed bends in an engine shroud like that, vacuum bagging will improve how the mat lays down and stays in place for all those tight corners while the resin hardens.

Don't let the initial complexity or cost put you off. There are many DIY approaches out there that are yielding some excellent low cost results.

Here are some links to a good resource for vacuum bagging:
http://www.fibreglast.com/product/vacuum-b...Learning_Center

DIY approach - http://www.instructables.com/id/Vacuum-bagging-basics./

This is a supplier that i have used for materials with good success:
Fiberglass coatings https://www.fgci.com/


And please include some good personal protection in your budget. A good mask with replaceable filters designed for the chemicals you will be using, eye protection, and disposable gloves at a minimum. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon8.gif) That way you are around here for a long time to enjoy your new parts.

Happy mixing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

Sincerely
Chris

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McMark
post Jul 24 2016, 10:18 AM
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Vacuum bagging has it's own tricks to learn, but it's not complicated. Bought this pump for less than $100.

Heres the first bagged part I made.


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tygaboy
post Jul 24 2016, 10:27 AM
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I did a fair bit of hobby composites, including a carbon fiber gas tank for a friend's race bike. Not Porsche content but here's the detailed build thread, if you're interested in wasting a few hours!

http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145975

I far prefer epoxy resin (I used West Systems, available a your local West Marine store) and got my fabrics through Fiberglast.com.
I got a small Gast vacuum pump on ebay for ~$100.

Take your time, particularly with the mold, and with a bit of practice, you can get a pretty nice result. Here's another carbon tank I made. This one was for my custom SV 650. Gotta say. I'm pretty proud of how it tuned out.



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Matt Romanowski
post Jul 24 2016, 08:33 PM
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Damon at Series 900 makes great shrouds in all different colors. No idea on the price. http://www.series900.com/
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forrestkhaag
post Jan 16 2017, 01:39 PM
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Couldn't agree more with RealCarFreak's points / particularly EPOXY or don't get in the business of glassing. A very decent gram scale and exact proportions give excellent results with the epoxy based product - one that is a multiple of times stronger than ester based resins.

My production run of hatch's for 6 applications are epoxy based and multiple layers - one woven roven and multiple layers of 10OZ glass. / not bagged due to simple form /

At 75 bucks for the kit, there is no profit but a great addition for tuning.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
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'73-914kid
post Jan 16 2017, 02:04 PM
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This never happened, as the gentlemen who was selling the tools stopped responding to emails.

I appreciate everyone's input in regards to composite lamination techniques, howevery I do work with prepreg composite structure, and wet layup repairs on a daily basis, so I'm no stranger to this. Hopefully some of the points brought up will act as guidance for others though.

I would still be open to making sets of these in the proper tint if I could find a reasonably priced set of molds.
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GeorgeRud
post Jan 17 2017, 09:42 AM
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One feature that has not been addressed (and would be nice to have) is a two piece main fan shroud that would allow easy access and replacement of the alternator in a -6. Anyone that's done that task with the engine in the car can attest to the desireability of such a modification.
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