Reliability and 33 Years of Experience, Not looking good. Options

[Tom_T]

trying to unload our old '86 5000cs turbo quattro . . . lemme know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

Killer styling on those 80's Audi 5000s & lower drag Cd than most contemporary sports cars Steve. I always loved the flush glass on them.

Of course, they also suffered from the runaway acceleration & cover-up issues as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I knew 2 ladies personally & their P+A service mgr. who confirmed it was an issue with their cars - not their right foot. One went off the end of the Balboa Island Ferry loading at the dock (fortunately her window was open & she swam out), the other was a super cautious elderly Newport Beach lady whose Audi went thru her garage back wall after she started edging in. NB/Chick Iverson & P+A quietly paid for new cars, repairs to house, medical & "damages" of an undisclosed amount in a quiet out-of-court settlement.

So don't believe the internet, marketing hush up, etc. It only happened on some few cars of the 100Ks built, & AFAIK they never fully figured out why, but replaced a certain run of the ECUs in the problem range to be sure.

If your 5000 is still running okay - or at least has lasted this long since that 80's problem when new, then it's probably one that escaped the fate, & is fine now - except for normal problems of its age.

As for our need - it's not a V8 nor a suitable tow vehicle, so it fails the primary mission of my getting a 6th vehicle in 47 years!

PS - our son's 88 Honda Civic Hatchback just hit 200K last July when he got here on summer leave, & it's been a solid car for him & 2 of his uncles (my wife's brothers) since bought new. His headlight/TS combo switch did go out this past Spring, but the part is NLA, so that's an issue for it & my cars.

PSS - Our neighbor had the 08 335 wagon which was a nightmarish money pit for every little thing - $1000 for an oil change, etc. - so he traded for a new Kia Soul with a 10yr/100K warranty - complete with Hamster Suit!

PSSS - I'd jump in any of our 85 E30 or 88 Westy & the 914 when done as Ian did with his 2056, but you do have to be diligent on upkeep to do that - even without the annual safety inspections, cuz the inspections really only scratch the surface.

The way I look at it, you'll either make payments on a continually replaced new car, or make regular repair & maintenance on keeping your used ones - so it's a wash. I don't know how I'll be able to do so with the new #6 TV of any make, given all the computers & electronics in them now, which will be NLA after 10-15 years.

GLWTS! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[MartyYeoman]

I still have my 94 GMC C1500 extended cab truck.

It is by far the least expensive vechicle to operate in terms of cost of part..operation...ect.

It has it's problems with plastic and all.... but the TBI 5.7 is great.

I can't afford to replace it at 45+k.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
1989 Chevrolet C2500 TBI 5.7 here. It"s probably not worth much $ right now but it sure is a reliable beast.

[Tom_T]

I have a 2001 VW Beetle (daughter's car) that up til recently has been trouble free. I guess my brother had fixed all the broblems before I bought it from him. Last christmas the water pump failed and my daughter lives in Long Beach so I had to pay to have it fixed. With all the added on require extra "when we do these cars we always replace these other crappy plastic parts that will fail right after you leave our shop" it was almost $1500. Since then I have had t have the brakes replaced and a fuse/relay panel that sits on the battery in the engine compartment.

Jim

Jim,

If you're not satisfied with the local shop your daughter takes the VW to, then try Hans Imports in Huntington Beach. Hans started out working at an Austrian VPA shop in the 1960's, worked for Circle Porsche in Long Beach in the late 60's to 72, when he started his own shop (& he was factory trained on our 914s from 69 too - which is how I started going to him in Summer 75 when I started looking for my 914, until he gave his blessing to the 73 2L I have).

His son works there now too, so if you want to talk direct with him, you'll have to ask for "Senior", & you can say that I recco'd you & your daughter (not that it will do you any good ;-). The "New Beastle" may still need expensive work (it's still a VW), but he'll tell you what to fix & what to ignore or whatever, & how best to resolve it.

He did advise me away from the new Beetle or old Bug as a car for our kids back in `03 FYI, & suggested Toyota or Honda .... & this is from an old school VPA Austrian guy still with a thick accent!

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[2mAn]

I owned over a dozen Mk1 & Mk2 VWs, and the 8v and diesels were bulletproof, and the one 16v had some issues. Loved those cars and they were pretty reliable.

Since then I moved to BMWs and the few Ive owned ( '91 M5, 86 ES & the current swapped car) all have been pretty reliable. My current E30 was my daily driver until earlier this year. I put 36k miles on it in 18 months. One coil pack failed on the 24v motor and every other issue I had was my own doing. Ive taken care of the maintenance and its been solid.

Had my friend not crashed it I probably wouldve never bought my current daily, a 08 C350. My buddy is a MB Tech and he said I got one of the most reliable newer MBs available right now. We'll see, I got it cheap because it has a lot of miles 130k when I bought it, it already has 142k and I havent had any issues .... yet. Time will tell.

I refused to buy any new car but when I was sort of forced to, I looked to find a car that has been developed, no new technology if I could avoid it. Turbos seem to be troublesome on anything other than a DSM, so that was out. I just wanted something "simple" and the Benz fits the bill for now. I secretly want to add A/C to the E30 and return it to DD status because that way I could keep my badass E30 and have the needed room to finally build a 914.

[MarkV]

http://thegarage.jalopnik.com/bmw-engines-...shit-1784684330

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

[Ed_F]

Oh man, I feel your pain. I used to work at a BMW/Mercedes shop, but had the misfortune of working on a few Jettas, A4s, and a Cayenne. They were diagnostic nightmares. One A4 in particular made me really consider calling a wrecker to come get my toolbox. The owner had a shade tree mechanic rebuild the motor, and it came into the shop a complete mess. It took a while, but I finally got it sorted out. The owner of the shop sent me to a VW/Audi variable valve timing / Direct injection coarse afterwards. Wish I knew what I had learned from that class before I had to deal with that particular car. Finished product paid well though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Modern BMW's on the other hand have equally atrocious quality. You could make a good living on oil leaks alone.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Some of the best cars I've ever were actually mentioned by other members. I had a 99 Mercedes C230 that went 270,000 before I gave it to a family member. The car was very solid and trouble free during my ownership. Had a 91 Miata that was pushing 300,000 before I sold it. My favorite was my 91 Saab 900 SPG. Rescued the car from Pick N Pull back in 2010. I replaced the headgasket, and took it on a 3500 mile cross country trip with no issues. I sold it to my brother, and it's still going strong with over 250,000 on the clock. Long live older cars (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[porschetub]

Yea late stuff is causing nightmares for people,always liked the bmw's had 7 of them,last one was a 1999 e39 touring ,it puked ever part known,sold it and bought an Audi 1.8 T neat wee car and was very reliable in the 87k kilometers I had it,moved up to a a4 avant 3.0 TDI ,legend motor and I had it flash tuned for more power 67k kilometers so far no issues however I change the oil on a very regular schedule.
Yes Japanese cars can go longer with neglected servicing but they generally not offering the finish quality or driving experience of the german cars period.

[76-914]

Oh man, I feel your pain. I used to work at a BMW/Mercedes shop, but had the misfortune of working on a few Jettas, A4s, and a Cayenne. They were diagnostic nightmares. One A4 in particular made me really consider calling a wrecker to come get my toolbox. The owner had a shade tree mechanic rebuild the motor, and it came into the shop a complete mess. It took a while, but I finally got it sorted out. The owner of the shop sent me to a VW/Audi variable valve timing / Direct injection coarse afterwards. Wish I knew what I had learned from that class before I had to deal with that particular car. Finished product paid well though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Modern BMW's on the other hand have equally atrocious quality. You could make a good living on oil leaks alone.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Some of the best cars I've ever were actually mentioned by other members. I had a 99 Mercedes C230 that went 270,000 before I gave it to a family member. The car was very solid and trouble free during my ownership. Had a 91 Miata that was pushing 300,000 before I sold it. My favorite was my 91 Saab 900 SPG. Rescued the car from Pick N Pull back in 2010. I replaced the headgasket, and took it on a 3500 mile cross country trip with no issues. I sold it to my brother, and it's still going strong with over 250,000 on the clock. Long live older cars (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

My neighbor bought his wife a new 730 last November. The dealers tow truck has come to pick it up 4 times thus far. There have been 2 other times I've not seen the tow truck but I have seen her in a BMW loaner. Evidently it manages to make it home and dies in the garage?? He's got to be pissed! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[mrgreenjeans]

As an owner of many Porsche Audi VW autos, I will say the Vintage products are in my experience FAR more superior to the later product.

I used a 1990 VW Fox ( made in Brazil ) that I purchased for several hundred dollars as an 8 year old car with 120,000 miles, for another 10 years and a total of 534,000 miles. I gave it to the guy I bought a fairly rare sunroof delete/delete special 944 from, using the car as a one way trip to Tucumcari, NM a distance of 1600 miles.

It used NO oil ever. ( much like the Audi 5 cylinder turbos and 944, 951, Carreras I own ) even on that 80mph cross country run in an End Of Life Vehicle. The guy still has it and uses it on short trips today but miles are unknown as odo broke shortly after he got it.

The only repair it EVER needed was an alternator at around 400,000 and a transmission replacement ( third gear lost a chunk and went thru the tranny at around 300,000 locking the trans in fourth. I put in a used one I got for $75.

One of the BEST and cheapest cars I ever owned.

( my current daily drivers are a '14 and '15 Corolla and a '13 Highlander, all bought new and with zero issues over 130,000 combined mileage use. I am sorry to say, the German new cars interest me less each time I hear of my friend's latest escapades at the local 'stealership'.

I buy vintage because of love for the old air coolers, the iconic driving experience old Porsches and Audis reward their drivers with, and the styles and build quality of 70's and 80's German 'think'.

And I buy new Toyotas for their appliance like dependability and low maint. ( amazing how great all of the above handle with a set of TRD anti-sway bars on them ). Free car washes for life. Free PDR for life. 2 years of free maint. and oil changes with a dealer that CARES about customer loyalty.

How many VAG dealers fit in that group ?

[Tom_T]

My neighbor bought his wife a new 730 last November. The dealers tow truck has come to pick it up 4 times thus far. There have been 2 other times I've not seen the tow truck but I have seen her in a BMW loaner. Evidently it manages to make it home and dies in the garage?? He's got to be pissed! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Since they/she's in CA, IIRC she qualified under the 2nd or 4th time for our Lemon Law forced buy back program. She & anyone else in that predicament with crap new car QC should avail themselves of it in CA & any other state with a similar Lemon Law.

IIRC the CA Lemon Law triggers on the 2nd or 4th time in on the same issue, but what I'm hearing outside & here, is that these are multiple issues on the new BMWs & others, but I don't know what the legal trigger point is for a bad new car with a rash of different issues.

Read here:

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep/30/bu...-lemon-20120930

https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/cars

CA-DCA Lemon Law PDF Booklet Download:
http://www.dca.ca.gov/acp/pdf_files/englemn.pdf

Let them know! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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PS - Another classic BMW kudo - I was really disappointed that my `85 E30 325e's Alternator died at 196K last year!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[jmitro]

I'll tell you right now, I occasionally have BMWs show up looking for service.

When I work on them, it's very obvious that they are higher quality than both Porsche and Mercedes.

oh no they aren't! my 06 X5 has had so many problems at 100k miles it's totally unacceptable! valve stem seals ($$$$), door handle carrier broke, axle went bad, brake booster went bad, HID headlight went bad, airbag suspension leak......and that's not even counting the water pump that I have to replace this weekend. it's a total POS.

I've owned three E36 M3s, E24 635, E46 m3, two E53 X5s, and they all had problem after problem.....

Only reason I drive a BMW is I do love the driving experience and they look good. But they are total money pits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[billh1963]

I agree with much of the OP's original post.

In my opinion there are two issues in play:
1. The pervasive (and ever increasing use of electronics)
2. Increasing use of plastic and/or cheap parts with little concern for reliability beyond the warranty

The first item is self explanatory. The more sensors, computers, switches, etc. the greater the chance for failure

The second item is tied to the pressure to deliver more and more functionality yet keep the costs down. It wasn't too long ago a "fully loaded" car meant PS, PB, PW, PDL, AC, CC and maybe a nice radio. Now, a "base car" has all that plus a bunch of safety features (air bags, ABS, traction control, etc), infotainment centers, remote start, and a host of other features that add cost and weight.

Something has to give....and that is the bullet proof reliability we used to see in BMW, MB, etc.

Does anyone think plastic radiators, water pump impellers, coolant pipes, manifolds, etc. are a good idea? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif)

[Brian Mifsud]

"Country of Origin"...... more and more component parts are coming from China.

Ford's Mustang Manual Transmissions on late model cars are crap built in China. Guys are blowing them up on stock engine and tires after only a few runs down the strip.. that never happened to the American made Borg-Warners and even Mexican Tremecs.

Every manufacturer is sourcing more and more parts from China including the "Germans", Mexicans, 'Mericans.......

I guarantee that if you don't stand over the Chinese supplier with a gun to their head.. they will absolutely change materials to the cheapest they can possibly find, and I'm mean ANY plastic resin, and ANY metal alloy.

It will be the weakest, most toxic (plastics), least durable which can be found.

How many of those "factory defects" can be sourced back to the crappy bracket, or bolt or fastener sourced in China to save a buck on final assembly in Germany?

[Perry Kiehl Clone]

No doubt the newest Porsches have some of the best engineering, and some of the shortest life components. The plastic they are using is garbage. It's kind of like "we are water cooling now, so let's build in a shorter service life".

We just sold our '06 Honda Odyssey to fund a '13 Nissan Altima purchase. The 193k mile Ody was a great car with only expected maintenance issues, and I really didn't want to sell, but the wife was tired of driving a van. It's hard to beat the reliability and service life of the Hondas, Mazdas, and Nissan products.

I'm lusting after a 964, but it will have to wait for a looong time. My B.I.L. just got a cherry mid 90's NSX and swears that's the way to go.

[DRPHIL914]

I've had many many cars in 35 years of driving-
I put almost 400k miles in a 2002 Chevy suburban and all I ever did was put tires, brakes, 3x, shiftable 2wd, 4wd, awesome truck - that wa bought because I got tired of minivans and transmission problems(2 Chrysler )
- currntly on 170k miles on our 2007 Lincoln Navigator - every one loves it- no major issues , tow package etc,
My college car was a 82 ford escort, later for a 92 escort that we put over 300k miles and only did suspension once, tires and brakes 3x , timing belts , water pump - got my money out of that!
- also 2 Jaguars and I have to saw both awesome cars, still have the 2004 VDP- great highway mileage-28-30 on highway, 23 combined around here, not one leak, still uses no oil - and the 4.2 v8 will throw you back in the seat if you are not careful- faster than my boxster -!!!
On the other hand low quality and not dependable cars have been Audi,
Vw etx
I'd buy a 2000- 2010 jaguar again. In a second !

[rhodyguy]

and it takes 10+ book hours to service a relay or another electrical part that got buried during assembly.

those 92 escorts are certainly durable. the one my dad bought new that i gave to my cousin is still rolling. great little station wagon.

[somd914]

I can remember VW products of the 70's and 80's were far from reliable, at least the 74 Beetle we had and a few friends with Rabbits and Foxes. I wouldn't go saying German cars of yesterday were better, but given the advances in engineering / design tools, machining, and materials, I expect better. I also don't expect to have to drop an engine tray and bumper cover to replace a headlight bulb...

But anyway, I wouldn't blame country of origin. China can produce some high quality goods, and they can produce low quality, but the same is true of products built in the US, Germany, etc. Ultimately it comes down to the company. If Ford trannys are made in China and have a high failure rate, that is due to Ford, not China. Blame the auto manufacturers.

[jimkelly]

you can't go wrong with a japanese car or a japanese wife (the little one) : )

[carr914]

you can't go wrong with a japanese car or a japanese wife (the little one) : )

I can attest to the Cars at least Hondas. I have put at least a Million Miles on a batch of late 90s Civics. They don't break and get 35-40 MPG

[iankarr]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Well, I can't speak to the wife claim, but my Lexus GX470 was 10+ years old and 160K miles with just oil changes and new 02 sensors. And it saved my life. I'd still have it if I didn't total it in my driveway. Yep, I might be the only guy to ever do that. Went into a 4 wheel slide on black ice rolling down my hill. Broke through a fence and rolled into a ravine. Landed on its side. Side bags deployed. My son and I walked away. Loved that car.