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> Is a 914 a good car for weekend / track car fun?, A bird says otherwise...
Is a 914 a good car for weekend / track car fun?
If you were in my shoes, what would you do
Dont be dumb, 914 [ 56 ] ** [80.00%]
Stay away, keep your E30 [ 7 ] ** [10.00%]
Buy a Miata [ 7 ] ** [10.00%]
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stownsen914
post Sep 1 2016, 11:45 AM
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For what it's worth, I know of a couple 914 racecars for sale (as far as I know they are, anyway) that are great deals in my opinion. One is a full on club racer with a 3L making a lot of hp for mid $20's. The other is a bit more tame with a 2.2L race engine for mid teens. The second one might even be a decent vintage racing candidate, now that I think about it. 914 racecars can be a bargain ...
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mskala
post Sep 1 2016, 01:20 PM
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I'm sure everybody has their own priorities when it comes to a fun
street/autocross/track type car, so this is just my opinion and my priority.

First priority: fun = not breaking down

To do that I try not to make any mod that's too extreme, and to do
maintenance and checks every winter. Motor is only 2.3L ~150HP, suspension
is not too wild and I had Chris@Tangerine add the ear re-enforcement bars.

When you buy a used race car you've just bought a pile of uncertainty. We
had a guy who bought 2 914 race cars in the last 2 years, came to several of
our autocrosses, broke every time. At least now that I've owned my car for >15
years I know as much as possible about condition.

Then, you have fun tuning the suspension a bit, get things the way you want, and
then try to improve your driving all the time.
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campbellcj
post Sep 1 2016, 07:05 PM
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Regarding breaking shit (or shit breaking). Yes.

I found my car to be very reliable. Once I'd replaced virtually every single part in the whole thing.

Have had some fun ones. Broke a stock 901/914 shifter; the whole lever came off in my hand at some thankfully lower speed. Had a carb throttle return spring pop off at speed. Pedalbox jam up due to bent/broken bits. Droplinks, monoballs and spoilers cracked during "offs".
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Cracker
post Sep 1 2016, 07:11 PM
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Allot of drivers don't push these old cars like you do Chris...stuff will happen when you do - and it doesn't matter what you're driving. I can speak better about durability about a year from now - hopefully.

Tony

QUOTE(campbellcj @ Sep 1 2016, 09:05 PM) *

Regarding breaking shit (or shit breaking). Yes.

I found my car to be very reliable. Once I'd replaced virtually every single part in the whole thing.

Have had some fun ones. Broke a stock 901/914 shifter; the whole lever came off in my hand at some thankfully lower speed. Had a carb throttle return spring pop off at speed. Pedalbox jam up due to bent/broken bits. Droplinks, monoballs and spoilers cracked during "offs".

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zach914v8
post Sep 2 2016, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE(Cracker @ Aug 30 2016, 09:02 PM) *

Hands down get/build a 914. I stirred up a hornets nest some time ago mainly regarding this same issue. The lack of 914 presence at the track is discouraging - being such a great car. The vast majority of owners here are "normal" non-performance drivers - more show, shine, originality stuff. Fine for them but doesn't get my blood flowing.

PM me if you are interested in discussing the finer points of preparing a 914 for track duty. I spend an entire year building my car and have now run the first 5 weekend events (DE's) without a breakdown of any kind. I've owned allot of different cars, some very quick and expensive race cars - nothing quite offers me the same joy as the old 914. I hope you chose to do it - BMW's are great cars - the e30's not so much - nothing special. I grew up in the hobby with Bimmers and know them very, very well.

The amount of thoughtful planning, knowing what to concentrate on and executing to the best of your ability and budget will all allow you to have a rewarding experience. IF you do it RIGHT, you will never regret campaigning a 914!

All the best!

PS: For inspiration...here are two pics of my 914 track car - I eat GT3 cup cars for fun - really. This is my street car too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

Tony

At our last event...we were the fastest car out of 140 or so entries (including 6 cup cars); lap times not acceleration (well acceleration too)! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nBg507dlcs







Tony you car is so bad ass... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif) Your car is the blue print for my cars future... now I just need kick ass fab skills like yourself and I'm good.
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Racer
post Sep 2 2016, 07:34 PM
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Keeping prepping and racing the devil you know (E30). It will be cheaper and as mentioned, perhaps more competitive.

That said, 914's are a blast. They are old. Some parts are hard to find. If built properly, it won't really ever break though (4 or 6 cyl).

Just get out there and have fun. The car is secondary as you are still progressing as a driver. Then, once you are a really good driver, buy an "early" 911.

911's divided the world.. those who can drive, and those who can't (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Jetsetsurfshop
post Sep 7 2016, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE(ThePaintedMan @ Aug 31 2016, 05:12 PM) *

Simon,
Chris just touched on something here - 99/100 times you will never be able to build something as cheap as you can buy a pre-built racecar. You may still need to "redo" some things or make modifications, but even then it'll be cheaper to buy something that's already built.
Personally what I would suggest is that you get some seat time first. You can rent cars for track days from various teams/shops. Go do a track day in an E30 if you can, or better yet, an autocross. Start small. No matter WHAT car you decide on, there is no such thing as a trouble-free or cheap track car. They take an insane amount of work just to keep on the track, let alone be competitive.
Or, you can jump all in like we did and do a race in Chumpcar or LeMons (I would highly recommend the former over LeMons). In either of these series, there are plenty of teams which will rent you a ride in their car, which is much cheaper than going out and buying one, then finding out it's not what you like. E30s are all over the place, seem to be pretty reliable and are "fairly" cheap. Several of us run 914s in Chumpcar and while fun, they need serious work to keep up with cars even 10 years newer. I drove an E30 and while I beat the living snot out of it and it was easy to drive, it was no where near as fun or gave as much feedback as the 914. However, with an E30, you'll always have a class/series to race in; Chumpcar, SCCA, NASA Spec E30, etc.

Here's a video of a Chumpcar 914 out there by you with a big honkin V8 swap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAqNehNGtE8


There's PLENTY of E30 videos out there if you search.



That 919 car is an animal. I don't think he has enough tire for the HP. I wonder if they finished the race.
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Randal
post Sep 9 2016, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE(campbellcj @ Aug 31 2016, 04:52 PM) *

QUOTE(Randal @ Aug 31 2016, 03:35 PM) *

A great all around car, i.e., one that works on the road or at the track, is a (used) Boxster S. They are cheap, handle and are relatively fast, even in stock condition. And if you want something really fast, throw in an LS engine.


Or a proven Spec Boxster (BSR) -- people "graduate" or "retire" all the time and sell their cars for far less than a new build.



Right, the only way to buy a race car, but Spec Boxsters seem to be going for big money now. Supply and demand.
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Cracker
post Sep 12 2016, 05:30 PM
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It appears the car has plenty of tire...it appears to be a set-up issue. I remember that car being all over the place. That is certainly not indicative of how a well balanced swap behaves. The one caveat may be the tire compound that is allowed - could help explain at least some of the issues.

Tony

QUOTE(Jetsetsurfshop @ Sep 7 2016, 05:01 PM) *

That 919 car is an animal. I don't think he has enough tire for the HP. I wonder if they finished the race.

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brant
post Sep 12 2016, 08:59 PM
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I wish the camera view/angle was better.
Not sure about that line in cork-screw...
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J P Stein
post Oct 9 2016, 09:02 AM
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I's my observation that all too many folks are unaware that race tires heat cycle out. About 40 AX passes and they're done. We ate up a lot of guys over the years, as a result.
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kaiserms
post Nov 11 2016, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE(campbellcj @ Aug 31 2016, 02:42 PM) *

Very sage advice above. Also bear in mind that you will see few or no 914s anymore in POC or PCA club racing. You may see some in autocross or DE but probably fading away quickly as well. So if you want to drive with like-minded folks having similar cars, that's another aspect to consider carefully. When I take my 914 out with POC these days, I'm typically the only 914 and one of the few aircooled cars out there... and a key reason I'm planning to join VARA in January.

Also, I remember we exchanged notes on costs earlier but to reiterate -- definitely do not assume a car will be cheaper to build or run because it's older and simpler -- if anything, these old cars have become far MORE expensive to build and to run vs. a Boxster/BSR or SpecMiata or Spec944 or whatnot. The more you modify, the deeper you dig that hole.


I just read your post to the newbie asking about 914's as a good weekend & fun car to buy and came across your comments as there are no longer any 914's running in POC. I ran a "stock" 73 914 2.0 in POC from 1985 to Nov 1990. At our Riverside Time Trial CS had 21 drivers registered, more than any other class. I'm sure the mention of Riverside also puts me in the history books. I won the CS class the next year.
25 years later, kids are grown & thru college, I'm dragging out my old reliable 914, but going back to improve everything, motor, suspension, weight, brakes & belts. Did
not realize that we had to replace belts every few years now!
To move on to our present day time trialing, I went to spectate at a local PCA day at the new M-1 Concours track. When asked what Porsche I plan to run I replied, a 73 914. The PCA guys remarked that they had not seen a 914 on track for years. With all the improvements & changes I am making on the car I'm sure it will at least be somewhat competitive. I have not complied with any vintage rule books as that was not my original intent. I wish that all the racers here at 914 World would come join us at the PCA track days. I intend to go back to time trialing for the thrill of it!
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campbellcj
post Nov 12 2016, 07:12 PM
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I was further discouraged last weekend to find zero 914s at the VARA races. The overall turnout was low and there were only 2-3 911s, no 356s I recall.
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Cracker
post Nov 12 2016, 07:17 PM
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...and this is a surprise? I caused quite a commotion a couple years ago with an open letter to this group - it was largely true and the general populous took offense. At race tracks - 914's are rare and becoming rarer. It takes allot of extra work to be on anything even close to being equal footing when campaigning a teener. My opinion then and now still is THAT extra work is worth it. It is hard to imagine how that message is lost on a site for...914's! I can only come to the conclusion that the affinity for 914 race cars only goes so far - frugality and laziness are terrible bed-partners.

PS: My football team just played in an entire half without gaining a single first down - not in the best of moods.

Tony
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stownsen914
post Nov 15 2016, 12:52 PM
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I have to say I'm a bit surprised that 914s are rare in vintage racing (that's what VARA is, right?) I'd think they'd be a good candidate for that.

In POC and PCA Racing, agreed that there are not so many 914s anymore. Or aircooled cars, for that matter. I finally started racing my car last year, and I was the only 914 at the race. I plan to keep at it, though. I'm hoping to turbo the car when I rebuild the engine. That should give it some oomph!
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brant
post Nov 15 2016, 03:46 PM
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I don't find 914's rare at all in vintage racing....

locally there are about 6 different ones that participate and an average of 4 per a weekend...

when I go to out of state SVRA,HMSA,CSRG races there are always 2-3

and in CVAR I gather they are up to about 6 per a weekend at their vintage races...


my opinion.... all of the 914's are leaving the clubs they started with such as PCA
they are all going to vintage racing... they are more competitive with other older machinery is all...
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Andyrew
post Nov 15 2016, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE(brant @ Nov 15 2016, 01:46 PM) *

my opinion.... all of the 914's are leaving the clubs they started with such as PCA
they are all going to vintage racing... they are more competitive with other older machinery is all...


You know Im going to make a comment relating to that here.. Now my car is 100% a street car but I was extremely surprised to see that I could not hang with barely any of the cars at the race track last weekend on a tight course. Granted I had street tires on but it was a bit disappointing seeing that even though I was showing just over 1G on the turns and I have at least 250hp I just wasnt as predictable and smooth as all the boxsters, 350z's, bmw's, Mr2 turbo's, S2k's on the track in the same skill class.

Jump in my Fiesta ST and bam Im hanging with the rest of them on the stock street tires...

Dont get me wrong, my 914 needs alot of things (Primarily a LSD, more aggressive pads, and stickier tires) but I just was not expecting that. Im going to compare my times but me going 100% in the fiesta(My comfortable limit) was about the same as me going 90-95%(my comfortable limit) in the 914..
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campbellcj
post Nov 15 2016, 06:29 PM
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Andrew I think your comments further validate that modern tech such as aerodynamic aids, suspension geometry, ABS brakes and maybe most significantly the lightening-quick transmissions have made it much harder for 914s or early 911s to compete in fun or in actual winning ability. Hence the comments that old cars belong with other old cars.

In my car which is extensively modified (but not as much pure balls-out race car as some others here) it's always a give-and-take with the newer cars on track. Most of the GT3/4/5 cars won't run away from me on straights or in tight technical turns where it's mainly mechanical grip at work. Of course I'm rowing the gears manually and losing time every shift where some of them have PDK or whatnot. Under braking and in fast sweepers though, it can be "game over" as aero+abs+wider contact patch trumps my old school tech.

My last observation of VARA was probably a bit seasonal too. I have certainly seen greater Porsche presence at other VARA events. The overall attendance seemed poor at this last one, not only the p-car presence.
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Rand
post Nov 15 2016, 06:37 PM
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It is quite enlightening that a stock modern car can kill a 914 in AX. Have to keep it in perspective. A friend of mine has a VW Passat with minor engine/turbo upgrades that can destroy most 914s in AX. Sigh. I like sleepers. My 914 isn't as stealthy as his VW which looks like a boring street car. A little envy going on.
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Andyrew
post Nov 16 2016, 09:43 AM
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QUOTE(campbellcj @ Nov 15 2016, 04:29 PM) *

Andrew I think your comments further validate that modern tech such as aerodynamic aids, suspension geometry, ABS brakes and maybe most significantly the lightening-quick transmissions have made it much harder for 914s or early 911s to compete in fun or in actual winning ability. Hence the comments that old cars belong with other old cars.

In my car which is extensively modified (but not as much pure balls-out race car as some others here) it's always a give-and-take with the newer cars on track. Most of the GT3/4/5 cars won't run away from me on straights or in tight technical turns where it's mainly mechanical grip at work. Of course I'm rowing the gears manually and losing time every shift where some of them have PDK or whatnot. Under braking and in fast sweepers though, it can be "game over" as aero+abs+wider contact patch trumps my old school tech.

My last observation of VARA was probably a bit seasonal too. I have certainly seen greater Porsche presence at other VARA events. The overall attendance seemed poor at this last one, not only the p-car presence.



I think if I had ABS on my car I would have been able to have been much more confident in my braking zones and stayed on the gas a bit more and held more speed going into corners as well. Im sure balance has a lot to do with that, but when I drove my Fiesta I toasted the brakes after about 8 laps chasing 911's, Boxsters, S2k's, and 370z's.

I KNOW I am going to setup my ABS system for the 914. I really, really wish I had ABS in the 914. I bet I would have picked up at least 2 seconds with ABS and probably another 2 seconds if I had a LSD. Every single corner I was fighting with the inside rear wheel breaking loose on just a little bit of throttle.
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