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> MicroSquit Conversion, Giving this a try
Mblizzard
post Oct 3 2016, 07:18 AM
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I am pretty happy with my stock FI. But after seeing some of the setups at Okteenerfest, I thought this might be worth trying.

The stock system is not easy to modify and get things running correctly. I spent a lot of time making minor adjustments by trial and error. While I am not looking for huge HP gains or anything, it is pretty clear that the mods I have could potentially benefit from a bit more precise control.

Going to start with fuel only at this point to get things going and see where it leads me. Any help or suggestions for set up would be appreciated.
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post Oct 3 2016, 07:35 AM
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GregAmy
post Oct 3 2016, 08:01 AM
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I've been giving this a lot of thought. I'm a big fan of Mega/Microsquirt and once installed it's a breeze to tune.

My thoughts were along the line of:

- Use stock injectors, fuel lines, manifold, throttle body
- Use stock dizzy signal for inferred crank position sensor
- Install temp sensor in manifold hole for IAT
- Use MS internal MAP
- Design up a TPS replacement (either mounted directly to TB or a string potentiometer mounted remotely)
- Wideband O2 input for closed loop tuning
- Contract Bowlsby to manufacture a replacement harness

It won't be particularly difficult, but will require time and funds to initially setup.

Subscribing...
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McMark
post Oct 3 2016, 08:03 AM
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I have all the pieces I used on my car. Working on a new injector setup right now.
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Mblizzard
post Oct 3 2016, 08:05 AM
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QUOTE(McMark @ Oct 3 2016, 06:03 AM) *

I have all the pieces I used on my car. Working on a new injector setup right now.


Yep you owe me the TPS bracket and TPS! Well owe is a little strong. You said you would get me a cost.
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McMark
post Oct 3 2016, 08:07 AM
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Mblizzard
post Oct 3 2016, 08:08 AM
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QUOTE(GregAmy @ Oct 3 2016, 06:01 AM) *

I've been giving this a lot of thought. I'm a big fan of Mega/Microsquirt and once installed it's a breeze to tune.

My thoughts were along the line of:

- Use stock injectors, fuel lines, manifold, throttle body
- Use stock dizzy signal for inferred
- Install temp sensor in manifold hole for IAT
- Use MS internal MAP
- Design up a TPS replacement (either mounted directly to TB or a string potentiometer mounted remotely)
- Wideband O2 input for closed loop tuning
- Contract Bowlsby to manufacture a replacement harness

It won't be particularly difficult, but will require time and funds to initially setup.

Subscribing...


Pretty much what I am looking at but I am not so sure how to use stock Dizzy for variable timing/crank position sensor.

Looking at the simplicity of the wiring (of course this is without having done a single thing but order parts) it seems that this will be relatively easy to "self" wire.
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GregAmy
post Oct 3 2016, 08:18 AM
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It will be easy to self wire. However, if you want to make it available to the community - or want to market a kit to help recover costs - then it's even easier to tell them to "go there" for the harness, and "there" for the MS, and "there" for the TPS, etc and "here's how to install it" and "here's the thread where the community posts our tunes for the varying setups". Soup.
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Mblizzard
post Oct 3 2016, 08:38 AM
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QUOTE(GregAmy @ Oct 3 2016, 06:18 AM) *

It will be easy to self wire. However, if you want to make it available to the community - or want to market a kit to help recover costs - then it's even easier to tell them to "go there" for the harness, and "there" for the MS, and "there" for the TPS, etc and "here's how to install it" and "here's the thread where the community posts our tunes for the varying setups". Soup.


True. But given my level of expertise in this area I am not sure how many will want to follow my lead!

The one thing that I can say is that from a cost view point, this conversion seems to represent a very interesting break point between repairing a stock system and converting. Looking at just over $500 for the parts makes this very interesting.

To be clear, my stock system is going on the shelf to be used again at some point.
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plays with cars
post Oct 3 2016, 09:34 AM
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Mike, I think you're concern is justified about using the stock dizzy as an inferred crank position sensor. I would not do it. Particularly if you have vision to expand and ultimately use MS for ignition control as well. You would ultimately be installing a crank trigger wheel and sensor anyway.

There is huge potential for improved drivability, performance, and economy if you have 3D mapping capability for both fuel and ignition. I believe that the factory FI system has a 3D map already for fuel (using points in the dizzy for engine speed and manifold pressure for load sensing) but the distributor really only knows engine rpm. The vacuum canister does not do a good job reacting to load; it's primarily an emission device.

You're right to step into it one system at a time, but I would definitely plan to include ignition in your project. FYI I'm currently in the process of adapting a MegaJolt system, which is an ignition only variant of MS, onto the 2.4 MFI engine in my car. I tried tuning the ignition and the MFI at the same time but kept running into situations where i didn't know which system was at fault for running problems. I've now gone back to a distributor until I get the MFI tuned, then I'll start on the ignition again.
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Mblizzard
post Oct 3 2016, 11:15 AM
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Still asking questions. A number of people have confirmed that the stock CHT will work with this system. Because this system is a bit more sensate to noise it is designed to have the grounds loop back to the unit or essentially use a 2 wire sender. Of course the stock CHT is a single wire that is grounded directly to the engine.

Most of the modern 2-wire units are 3/8 NPT and the stock CHT is 10 mm x 1. Very close I know but has anyone ever seen a 10mm x 1 to 3/8 NPT adaptor?
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JamesM
post Oct 3 2016, 11:53 AM
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All sorts of cool stuff

http://www.thedubshop.net/products-c17av

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jcd914
post Oct 3 2016, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 3 2016, 10:15 AM) *

Still asking questions. A number of people have confirmed that the stock CHT will work with this system. Because this system is a bit more sensate to noise it is designed to have the grounds loop back to the unit or essentially use a 2 wire sender. Of course the stock CHT is a single wire that is grounded directly to the engine.

Most of the modern 2-wire units are 3/8 NPT and the stock CHT is 10 mm x 1. Very close I know but has anyone ever seen a 10mm x 1 to 3/8 NPT adaptor?


I believe the 911 3.2 CHT is 10mm x 1.0mm and the later one "(1988 on? ) were 2 wire harnesses, including a ground wire.

Jim
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cgnj
post Oct 4 2016, 04:30 AM
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Hi,

I thought about about all of these issues while I was planning how to execute my MS conversion. Just replacing or repairing the stock MPS will cover most of the cost of the conversion.

If I were going to do a motor up to 2056, this is what I would do.

Microsquirt so all the controls can be in the engine bay and it will be easier to revert back to stock.
Crank position sensor and trigger wheel.
Cam position sensor
Coil on plug

1.8 plenum or a vanagon 2.1 plenum. (I measured the volume of these. There was a negligible difference). Vanagon plenum will allow a larger throttle body without as much work. I will have to check, but I think the vanagon throttle body is marginally bigger than the stock 2.0. I had a discussion with a member regarding these style plenums vs. 2.0 plenum. The theory is that the intake charge loses less velocity since it doesn't hit the floor before entering the runner.

I think this ends up being the cleanest installation.

My two cents, feel free to flame me.

Carlos


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Mblizzard
post Oct 4 2016, 06:05 AM
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QUOTE(cgnj @ Oct 4 2016, 02:30 AM) *

Hi,

I thought about about all of these issues while I was planning how to execute my MS conversion. Just replacing or repairing the stock MPS will cover most of the cost of the conversion.

If I were going to do a motor up to 2056, this is what I would do.

Microsquirt so all the controls can be in the engine bay and it will be easier to revert back to stock.
Crank position sensor and trigger wheel.
Cam position sensor
Coil on plug

1.8 plenum or a vanagon 2.1 plenum. (I measured the volume of these. There was a negligible difference). Vanagon plenum will allow a larger throttle body without as much work. I will have to check, but I think the vanagon throttle body is marginally bigger than the stock 2.0. I had a discussion with a member regarding these style plenums vs. 2.0 plenum. The theory is that the intake charge loses less velocity since it doesn't hit the floor before entering the runner.

I think this ends up being the cleanest installation.

My two cents, feel free to flame me.

Carlos


I hope there are no flames! In the thread or the car!

I have been looking at this a while and I initially want a dependable and adjustable fuel management system. My current set up runs well but the variables are just too hard to control.

So I am doing fuel first with stock intake. I have a very good 123 electronic dizzy so I am going to ride that for a while.

What I am looking at now is how to set it up to use the temp range in the CHT and possibly look at adding my Dakota CHT gauge as an input.
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jd74914
post Oct 4 2016, 06:19 AM
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Does the Dakota CHT gauge have any analog (voltage) outputs? The actual CHT sensor is a type K thermocouple, so you'll need an amplifier to read it into the ECU. I've used some of the cheap amplifiers on eBay for small projects and been pretty happy with them.

Mario @ TheDubShop has a pretty slick crank trigger setup which isn't too expensive. If you're going for simple to start you can go wasted spark/injection with just that crank trigger.

I would do some looking into controlling ignition too (I know you have the cool A123 dizzy) because once you start modifying injection you're probably going to want to jump right into modifying ignition too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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McMark
post Oct 4 2016, 07:16 AM
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CHT Group Buy from Mark Whitesell

Never had a ground loop problem with that sensor.
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Mblizzard
post Oct 4 2016, 08:18 AM
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QUOTE(McMark @ Oct 4 2016, 05:16 AM) *

CHT Group Buy from Mark Whitesell

Never had a ground loop problem with that sensor.


Agree on use of this sensor. But I was looking to use the actual temp generated by the Dakota sensor to tell the ECU to enrich on certain conditions like climbing hills where the CHT may increase quickly.

Now I don't know enough about the ECU yet and this might be a moot point after everything is tuned. But after seeing how quickly the cylinder temps can change I thought if this was possible it would just be an added layer of protection.

I am checking on how the Dakota operates but I think it is a temp resistance set up.
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Mblizzard
post Oct 4 2016, 11:01 AM
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QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 4 2016, 04:19 AM) *

Does the Dakota CHT gauge have any analog (voltage) outputs? The actual CHT sensor is a type K thermocouple, so you'll need an amplifier to read it into the ECU. I've used some of the cheap amplifiers on eBay for small projects and been pretty happy with them.

Mario @ TheDubShop has a pretty slick crank trigger setup which isn't too expensive. If you're going for simple to start you can go wasted spark/injection with just that crank trigger.

I would do some looking into controlling ignition too (I know you have the cool A123 dizzy) because once you start modifying injection you're probably going to want to jump right into modifying ignition too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Correct on the Type K and the voltage output is in the mV range so not very useful as is. Contacted Dakota and they don't have an way to output the voltage. So nice thought, difficult to implement.
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Mark Henry
post Oct 4 2016, 03:20 PM
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If you use the stock 914 injectors (low impedance) you have to use the resistor pack or you will fry your board.

I doubt if you see any real improvement over the stock FI on a bone stock engine. But like said if your MPS is shot or if you plan on future bigger engine/cam then it will pay off then.

I first ran my SDS on my stock 1.8, no power or MPG improvement, but it was a good engine to learn how to use the system.
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