MicroSquit Conversion, Giving this a try Options

[Mblizzard]

Is anyone using a MAF sensor or an O2 sensor with there MS setup?

If so, which ones, mounted how?

No need for a MAF, you use the map sensor.

Pretty much any newer WB02 sensor, the manuals should have the recommended and proven units. (buy a new one, don't cheap out on used)

http://www.megamanual.com/PWC/

RTFM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

14point7 makes some very reliable, low cost O2 sensor controllers. I've had better luck with them than Innovate products over the last few years and they are much cheaper to boot! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I would recommend getting a Spartan 2 over an Innovate LC/LM/1/2/etc. or any of the AEM products.

http://www.14point7.com/products/spartan-lambda-controller-2

To be clear I am asking to build my knowledge base not to question your recommendation. But what makes the Spartan better? I think all of them are based on the Bosch LSU 4.9 O2 sensor. So I am not sure what the advantage of one over the other is.

[jd74914]

To be clear I am asking to build my knowledge base not to question your recommendation. But what makes the Spartan better? I think all of them are based on the Bosch LSU 4.9 O2 sensor. So I am not sure what the advantage of one over the other is.

No worries! I've been lucky enough to have experience with a bunch of different engine management systems and components and just like to share. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You're correct; they all do use the same Bosch sensor (some do use the older LSU4.2, but that's being phased out). The difference is in the signal processing and element heater control electronics. My personal experience has been that Innovate units are very sensitive to both wiring issues (especially on the ground side) and temperature on both the sensor and controller. They also tend to drift if you do not free-air calibrate them on a regular basis which is a pain. I've seen errors of ~0.5 AFR (gasoline engine) after the sensors have been in service for a bit without a recalibration.

Most of the O2 sensors I've used have been in pretty demanding [hot] racecar applications and the Innovates have experienced far more faults. So many in fact that we stopped using them altogether. Innovate and most other controller companies (including Bosch) use the same chip to control their sensors; 14point7 designed their own micro-controller. They claim better sensor temperature stability and faster thermal response.

Innovate
-- Requires free air calibration
-- Extremely sensitive to environment temperature (operating environment temp range is 0° to 140° F)
-- More expensive
-- 1 year warranty
++ Better packaging
++ Serial communication to PC for logging (not usually too useful)

Spartan
++ Lower cost
++ Higher ambient operating temperature range (-40° to 250° F)
++ Factory calibration
++ 2 year warranty
-- Packaging not as robust
-- Longer lead time (ships from Canada)

Some of the issues I have with Innovate sensors do definitely stem from the applications where I've used them-I'm sure tons of other people have had much better luck. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Since the price point is so much lower and myself and others have had good experiences I just always like to recommend looking at the 14point7 products too.


This is a off a small tangent from the above, but the NTK O2 sensors seem to be of higher quality than the Bosch sensors so if anyone happens to have an ecu which can natively control them and you can afford the $200+ per sensor you should go that route.

[Dtjaden]

I've used the Innovate MTX-L for the past couple of years without any problems. I particularly like the integrated gauge. Granted my use in not in a race car environment.

[Mblizzard]

Does anyone have recommendations for high impedance injectors that work in the stock mountings?

[McMark]

I found a setup that are stock style injectors that are high-impedance. I'm swapping my turbo car to a newer, better injectors but will require more design time to complete. But the point is that I won't need the injector set off my turbo car if you want to get those. They'll drop in and are sized correctly for our engines.

[Mueller]

Does anyone have recommendations for high impedance injectors that work in the stock mountings?

I used these below when I converted my L-jet to MS:

https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/bosch-yello...b-fuel-injector

[Mueller]

I found a setup that are stock style injectors that are high-impedance. I'm swapping my turbo car to a newer, better injectors but will require more design time to complete. But the point is that I won't need the injector set off my turbo car if you want to get those. They'll drop in and are sized correctly for our engines.

Slight hijack...going with the Delphi injectors? Co-worker gave me a set along with the required adapters.

[Mblizzard]

Does anyone have recommendations for high impedance injectors that work in the stock mountings?

I used these below when I converted my L-jet to MS:

https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/bosch-yello...b-fuel-injector

These seem to have a different way of connecting rather than the stock arrangement?

[Mark Henry]

Old style have a barbed fitting and take the stock hose, newer styles all use fuel rails with o-rings.
The fuel rail bolts onto the manifold capturing the the injector into place.

Really if you already have 2.0 D-jet injectors use them, they are good injectors and will simplify things if you are using the stock manifolds.

[Mblizzard]

Old style have a barbed fitting and take the stock hose, newer styles all use fuel rails with o-rings.
The fuel rail bolts onto the manifold capturing the the injector into place.

Any known to work on stock 914 manifold mounts?

Just looking at all of the options before installing the system.

[Mark Henry]

Old style have a barbed fitting and take the stock hose, newer styles all use fuel rails with o-rings.
The fuel rail bolts onto the manifold capturing the the injector into place.

Any known to work on stock 914 manifold mounts?

Just looking at all of the options before installing the system.

That's why I said to use the 2.0 injectors for stock manifolds and fuel lines, your options are limited for injectors with barbed fittings.
You need barbed ends to clamp hose to, don't even think about clamping hose on an O-ring style injector. No bolt on solution short of fabricating/welding something up for injectors that mount on a fuel rail (O-ring).
You can buy blank fuel rail and drill it for the correct placement, the custom fab part would be how to mount it, the rail has to be secure and straight. It doesn't clamp down on the injector, the injector sort of floats on the O-rings just captured between the rail and manifold.

Pump is pushing 30-40lbs of pressure, fuel rail or hose it's not something you want to do half-assed.

For a stock mounting (hose) my first choice would be 2.0 injectors, which are actually pretty good, even for high performance applications.
2nd would be 1.7 injectors, I'd have to look at spec, but if memory serves me I think they were OK up to about 140 HP.
Do not use 1.8 L-jet injectors for anything but up to a stock 2.0, they have the least flow and are not really adaptable to higher duty cycles.
VW bus and bug are even smaller L-jet injectors.

Not sure what Mark's barbed high impedance injectors are off of, but he knows what works and I bet he'd give you a good deal on them.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[Dtjaden]

The stock 2.0 injectors have enough flow for virtually any 4 cylinder 914 you can build. Just be sure to have them rebuilt and flow tested.

[McMark]

Not sure what Mark's barbed high impedance injectors are off of, but he knows what works and I bet he'd give you a good deal on them.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

They're custom built by some company for Datsun engines, but they're basically identical to stock. Stock barb fittings to stock fuel rails. You could even use stock elbow fuel lines.

[Mblizzard]

Not sure what Mark's barbed high impedance injectors are off of, but he knows what works and I bet he'd give you a good deal on them.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

They're custom built by some company for Datsun engines, but they're basically identical to stock. Stock barb fittings to stock fuel rails. You could even use stock elbow fuel lines.

Mark - As you know I am still gathering parts. But I would be interested in looking at the cost of these. I have the resistors for my stock injectors but thought I would look at all of the option before I committed to wiring everything up.

[aircooledtechguy]

Old style have a barbed fitting and take the stock hose, newer styles all use fuel rails with o-rings.
The fuel rail bolts onto the manifold capturing the the injector into place.

Really if you already have 2.0 D-jet injectors use them, they are good injectors and will simplify things if you are using the stock manifolds.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Even though I'm not a huge fan of the stock d-jet electrical connectors used by the old injectors, those injectors flow well enough to run all but a large turbo engine. I ran my 2056cc for years on a set of VW type3 yellow-top injectors @ 40psi and had gobs of power and they flow almost 10# less than a 2.0L injector.

As far as impedance goes, this is why everyone should consider ditching Microsquirt as a plan and step up to either MS3 or one of ECUs from thedubshop.net (I'm talking the one that Mario recently began offering). MicroS is NOT able to be modified, so you're stuck with whatever they offered it with 7-8 years ago or more. Time had marched on and high impedance injectors are the way to go for most, but if you want to run your old injectors, this leaves you having to re-invent the wheel.

If you use one of Mario's new "The Dubshop ECUs", they will run whatever injector you plug into it. It's also weatherproof with a modern harness connector. There's also an on-board O2 sensor controller that saves you $$$ and having to wire it in. . . All the features 99% of folks need without the fuss & muss. Just saying' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It's really easy to get lost in all the obscure details and overthink this stuff, making it over-complicated. Don't. Lots of people give advice on these systems with nothing but second-hand anecdotal experience actually doing them. While pontification is "fun", driving your car is "funner." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[falcor75]

Old style have a barbed fitting and take the stock hose, newer styles all use fuel rails with o-rings.
The fuel rail bolts onto the manifold capturing the the injector into place.

Really if you already have 2.0 D-jet injectors use them, they are good injectors and will simplify things if you are using the stock manifolds.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Even though I'm not a huge fan of the stock d-jet electrical connectors used by the old injectors, those injectors flow well enough to run all but a large turbo engine. I ran my 2056cc for years on a set of VW type3 yellow-top injectors @ 40psi and had gobs of power and they flow almost 10# less than a 2.0L injector.

As far as impedance goes, this is why everyone should consider ditching Microsquirt as a plan and step up to either MS3 or one of ECUs from thedubshop.net (I'm talking the one that Mario recently began offering). MicroS is NOT able to be modified, so you're stuck with whatever they offered it with 7-8 years ago or more. Time had marched on and high impedance injectors are the way to go for most, but if you want to run your old injectors, this leaves you having to re-invent the wheel.

If you use one of Mario's new "The Dubshop ECUs", they will run whatever injector you plug into it. It's also weatherproof with a modern harness connector. There's also an on-board O2 sensor controller that saves you $$$ and having to wire it in. . . All the features 99% of folks need without the fuss & muss. Just saying' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It's really easy to get lost in all the obscure details and overthink this stuff, making it over-complicated. Don't. Lots of people give advice on these systems with nothing but second-hand anecdotal experience actually doing them. While pontification is "fun", driving your car is "funner." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I've done the eftermarket fuel injection with another system and if I was to do it all over again I would easily go with the dubshop ecu. It has all you need for a basic four cylinder, Mario can sell you all the senders and parts you need and answer all your questions and help you get it running.

This would be the fastest way to get your car running on EFI. If you want to take the long road to learn yourself thats doable too but its alot more involved process.

[Mark Henry]

Dude enough with the adverts, If you shill his stuff enough do you get a free T-shirt or something?
The OP already has an ECU.

[McMark]

As far as impedance goes, this is why everyone should consider ditching Microsquirt as a plan and step up to either MS3 or one of ECUs from thedubshop.net (I'm talking the one that Mario recently began offering). MicroS is NOT able to be modified, so you're stuck with whatever they offered it with 7-8 years ago or more. Time had marched on and high impedance injectors are the way to go for most, but if you want to run your old injectors, this leaves you having to re-invent the wheel.

WHAT!??!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) Everyone should ditch MicroSquirt so they can run stock low-impedance injectors? This is advice? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

MicroSquirt has SO MANY advantages in terms of simplicity for people who just want a simple D-Jet replacement. If you can't see those advantages, you're keeping yourself intentionally blind. Yes, an MS3 has way more advanced features than MicroSquirt. But as you said, "It's really easy to get lost in all the obscure details and overthink this stuff, making it over-complicated." So it seems to me that a small, weatherproof and fully functional ECU would be a step toward simplicity. You're pontificating on the benefits of MS3 because it can be modified and in the next breath promoting simplicity. Those are diametrically opposite. You can't promote both. YOU are letting your DubShop promotion job get in the way of actually helping people.

I have firsthand experience. MicroSquirt works. It does everything most people need for half the price. Please, take the challenge and explain to me how a normally aspirated 2056 needs a fucking MS3!

[Mblizzard]

Dude enough with the adverts, If you shill his stuff enough do you get a free T-shirt or something?
The OP already has an ECU.

May just drive it up to you for the install!

Well not really. Looking to learn all I can during the process. I just don't want to develop target fixation on a single solution. Took a while to get to this point. While there are some really good ready to go options. I am just looking to implement a system, for a reasonable cost, that is tunable for the modifications I have. There is so much more that can be done with any of the systems but I am trying to avoid choosing a path way that blocks off options.

So at this point. Starting with a stock FI system that has new injectors and few mods. I have $600 invested. While it is very true that $600 is not running anything yet, I think that I should be able to get it going for very little more.

To be clear, I am spending some money on fixing certain things that are not essential to just getting the car running on the MicroSquirt that I am not adding into the cost. I got new injector wire boot covers from 914 Rubber. Could have used the old ones but they did not look so nice. It is also hard to account for the parts we all have on the shelf that we dive into at times so I won't even try.

I hope to get the TPS done this weekend and start setting up the parameters on the bench for the system.

[Mark Henry]

As much as I like getting work, the biggest kick I get is seeing members do it themselves. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)
To me that's what this site and this hobby is all about.

But at the same time this info does help the business types, when a member realizes for whatever reason that the job is best left to a pro.
Programmable EFI falls into two categories, you better learn to DIY or have deep pockets to get a pro to do it for you.
I agree if someone just wants a simple system to get'r done, you shouldn't be pushing something with all the bells and whistles.

I have no problem with someone making a shop/product recommendation, but please just once in a thread.
PLEASE!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)