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> MicroSquit Conversion, Giving this a try
Mblizzard
post Oct 4 2016, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Oct 4 2016, 01:20 PM) *

If you use the stock 914 injectors (low impedance) you have to use the resistor pack or you will fry your board.

I doubt if you see any real improvement over the stock FI on a bone stock engine. But like said if your MPS is shot or if you plan on future bigger engine/cam then it will pay off then.

I first ran my SDS on my stock 1.8, no power or MPG improvement, but it was a good engine to learn how to use the system.



Yep resistors on way! But I have a 2056 with big valve heads. I am expecting one-million HP!

Expect to take the engine down and split the case next time to add a cam at some point. Then even more HP!

Really just looking for a way to tune what I have well and move into other HP areas.
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Dtjaden
post Oct 4 2016, 05:44 PM
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Some comments on my 2 year journey with Megasquirt:

1. Install a crank trigger while you have the engine out of the car. Mario at the DubShop sells the one I used at a very reasonable price. I believe McMark also sells one.

While injection control could possibly work with less than a 36-1 trigger, ignition control would never be accurate enough. I am also concerned that a distributor based control would have too much trigger float because of the backlash in the distributor gears.

2. You can definitely use the existing injectors (2 liter), but have them rebuilt and flow tested. I used WitchHunter for this. You can also drive the injectors without resistor packs (which slow their response) by using a peak and hold driver board form JBPerf or DIYAutotune. You will need the flow rate of the injectors at the fuel pressure you decide on and the injector dead-time. I can give you those for my setup but yours may differ. They are not hard to calculate.

3. Once you decide to add ignition control it is almost trivial to get started with this. I used individual GM LS3 ignition coils which can be directly driven by the Megasquirt system. For a start at timing you can duplicate the the timing of the 914 advance curve and then go from there.

4. I tried using the stock CHT sensor - I went through 2 - and finally settled on the one sold by the DubShop. Its based of a GM sensor and is much more consistent. I had a lot of drift with the stock sensors. By the way, once the engine reaches normal operating temperature the CHT has little effect.

5. My throttle position sensor is a lightly used Bosch TPS that I adapted to the stock throttle body using a low tech aluminum plate. You can find this on numerous BMWs at your local junk yard or on ebay for around $30.

6. If you want reliable startup under varying temperatures you will need an idle control valve. I am again using a used Bosch ICV and as with the TPS this can be found on BMWs and others or ebay for $30 - 40. This is a PWM valve, not a stepper based valve.

7. To start tuning you can use the map that TunerStudio generates. You need to set the baseline tune with all TunerStudio Startup/Idle settings off and the engine fully warmed up. Set the idle using the idle adjustment screw on the throttle body. After that you can use the Startup/Idle settings to get a reliable cold start. If you don't do it this way you will chase your tale for weeks (ask me how I know).

8. If you want to do accurate tuning you will need a wide-band AFR meter. I use the Innovate Motorsports MTX-L for this.

9. I mounted the Megasquirt (not Microsquirt) in the rear trunk and have used WeatherPack connectors for all of the wiring. This includes two 22 pin bulkhead connectors into the engine compartment. I built my own mounting plate for the Megasquirt which includes a fuse panel, relays and breakout terminals for much of the wiring. I can build a 914 engine bay wiring harness for you using the Megasquirt standard wiring colors if you make a definite decision on the location of the Microsquirt/Megasquirt and the rest of the components that you will use.

That's a quick summary. If you have questions let me know.

By the way, on the drive to Medford and back I got near 40 MPG driving at 75 plus MPH.

Darryl
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porsche913b_sp
post Oct 4 2016, 06:18 PM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
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Porschef
post Oct 4 2016, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE(Dtjaden @ Oct 4 2016, 07:44 PM) *



By the way, on the drive to Medford and back I got near 40 MPG driving at 75 plus MPH.

Darryl



BOOYAH!! Awesome. And there ain't a plug n' play for dummies like myself? BTW, how were your head temps?
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Dtjaden
post Oct 4 2016, 08:38 PM
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I think you could contact Mario at the DubShop or Mark at Origional Customs. I believe both would provide turnkey systems for the type 4. But without controlling most of the engine parameters it's not easy. The 1.7, 1.8 and 2.0L engines are each different. Then add the variations of differing cams, ignition, intakes, extended engine sizes and 40+ year old parts. If you try to minimize variations by providing all of the components and parts that eliminate commercial risk I'm not sure that many 914 owners would pay for the system.

On a do it yourself basis I probably spent about $2,500 (maybe more). The packaging of the various components would add many hours of labor and support of customers many more so I can't see selling a turnkey system that would include FI and ignition control for under $4,500.

On the Medford drive my CHT gauge was not working so I'm not sure of the head temps on that trip. My oil temps stayed in the range of 180 - 220 with the upper end during the drive through the passes on I5 between Redlands, CA and Ashland, OR.

I can run on the lean side when not under load. For example light load in the 15's. Under load more like 13 - 13.5.

P.S. - my engine is 2056 cc with about 9.2 cr and a Webcam #86

QUOTE(Porschef @ Oct 4 2016, 06:13 PM) *

QUOTE(Dtjaden @ Oct 4 2016, 07:44 PM) *



By the way, on the drive to Medford and back I got near 40 MPG driving at 75 plus MPH.

Darryl



BOOYAH!! Awesome. And there ain't a plug n' play for dummies like myself? BTW, how were your head temps?
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Mblizzard
post Oct 5 2016, 07:48 AM
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QUOTE(Dtjaden @ Oct 4 2016, 03:44 PM) *

Some comments on my 2 year journey with Megasquirt:

1. Install a crank trigger while you have the engine out of the car. Mario at the DubShop sells the one I used at a very reasonable price. I believe McMark also sells one.

While injection control could possibly work with less than a 36-1 trigger, ignition control would never be accurate enough. I am also concerned that a distributor based control would have too much trigger float because of the backlash in the distributor gears.

2. You can definitely use the existing injectors (2 liter), but have them rebuilt and flow tested. I used WitchHunter for this. You can also drive the injectors without resistor packs (which slow their response) by using a peak and hold driver board form JBPerf or DIYAutotune. You will need the flow rate of the injectors at the fuel pressure you decide on and the injector dead-time. I can give you those for my setup but yours may differ. They are not hard to calculate.

3. Once you decide to add ignition control it is almost trivial to get started with this. I used individual GM LS3 ignition coils which can be directly driven by the Megasquirt system. For a start at timing you can duplicate the the timing of the 914 advance curve and then go from there.

4. I tried using the stock CHT sensor - I went through 2 - and finally settled on the one sold by the DubShop. Its based of a GM sensor and is much more consistent. I had a lot of drift with the stock sensors. By the way, once the engine reaches normal operating temperature the CHT has little effect.

5. My throttle position sensor is a lightly used Bosch TPS that I adapted to the stock throttle body using a low tech aluminum plate. You can find this on numerous BMWs at your local junk yard or on ebay for around $30.

6. If you want reliable startup under varying temperatures you will need an idle control valve. I am again using a used Bosch ICV and as with the TPS this can be found on BMWs and others or ebay for $30 - 40. This is a PWM valve, not a stepper based valve.

7. To start tuning you can use the map that TunerStudio generates. You need to set the baseline tune with all TunerStudio Startup/Idle settings off and the engine fully warmed up. Set the idle using the idle adjustment screw on the throttle body. After that you can use the Startup/Idle settings to get a reliable cold start. If you don't do it this way you will chase your tale for weeks (ask me how I know).

8. If you want to do accurate tuning you will need a wide-band AFR meter. I use the Innovate Motorsports MTX-L for this.

9. I mounted the Megasquirt (not Microsquirt) in the rear trunk and have used WeatherPack connectors for all of the wiring. This includes two 22 pin bulkhead connectors into the engine compartment. I built my own mounting plate for the Megasquirt which includes a fuse panel, relays and breakout terminals for much of the wiring. I can build a 914 engine bay wiring harness for you using the Megasquirt standard wiring colors if you make a definite decision on the location of the Microsquirt/Megasquirt and the rest of the components that you will use.

That's a quick summary. If you have questions let me know.

By the way, on the drive to Medford and back I got near 40 MPG driving at 75 plus MPH.

Darryl


Got TPS coming from McMark.

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.

I have heard good and bad about use of the Stock CHT. Checking with Mario on the options. The GM NPT threading is not the same as the 10mm x1 stock threading so would you not need an adaptor for that?

Like the idea of the peak and hold but I don't have the abilities to build the electronics and the prebuilt ones seem expensive.

Had not considered idle control valve. I hoped that the warm up programing in the MicroSquirt would address those issues Seem like that was a wrong guess?

Have wideband O2 already installed.

As this will be a build in stages I am not sure I cam plan out the locations of everything in advance. But I would love to see some photos of your install for some ideas.

Lots more questions to follow! Should be receiving my first batch of parts today.
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Dtjaden
post Oct 5 2016, 09:10 AM
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The DubShop CHT sensor is installed under one of the engine tin screws. It uses the GM sensor element in deferent housing.

If you are going to continue to use the 914 ignition you can't use the DubShop mini cam sync since it replaces the distributor. If you don't want to use a crank trigger wheel (which I strongly reccommend) your only option is using coil/points triggering.

Without using an ICV it will be difficult if not impossible to get hands off (really foot off) start up. You will need to use the accelerator for the first few minutes to keep the engine running until it reaches operating temperature.

QUOTE(Mblizzard) *

QUOTE(Dtjaden @ Oct 4 2016, 03:44 PM) *

Some comments on my 2 year journey with Megasquirt:

1. Install a crank trigger while you have the engine out of the car. Mario at the DubShop sells the one I used at a very reasonable price. I believe McMark also sells one.

While injection control could possibly work with less than a 36-1 trigger, ignition control would never be accurate enough. I am also concerned that a distributor based control would have too much trigger float because of the backlash in the distributor gears.

2. You can definitely use the existing injectors (2 liter), but have them rebuilt and flow tested. I used WitchHunter for this. You can also drive the injectors without resistor packs (which slow their response) by using a peak and hold driver board form JBPerf or DIYAutotune. You will need the flow rate of the injectors at the fuel pressure you decide on and the injector dead-time. I can give you those for my setup but yours may differ. They are not hard to calculate.

3. Once you decide to add ignition control it is almost trivial to get started with this. I used individual GM LS3 ignition coils which can be directly driven by the Megasquirt system. For a start at timing you can duplicate the the timing of the 914 advance curve and then go from there.

4. I tried using the stock CHT sensor - I went through 2 - and finally settled on the one sold by the DubShop. Its based of a GM sensor and is much more consistent. I had a lot of drift with the stock sensors. By the way, once the engine reaches normal operating temperature the CHT has little effect.

5. My throttle position sensor is a lightly used Bosch TPS that I adapted to the stock throttle body using a low tech aluminum plate. You can find this on numerous BMWs at your local junk yard or on ebay for around $30.

6. If you want reliable startup under varying temperatures you will need an idle control valve. I am again using a used Bosch ICV and as with the TPS this can be found on BMWs and others or ebay for $30 - 40. This is a PWM valve, not a stepper based valve.

7. To start tuning you can use the map that TunerStudio generates. You need to set the baseline tune with all TunerStudio Startup/Idle settings off and the engine fully warmed up. Set the idle using the idle adjustment screw on the throttle body. After that you can use the Startup/Idle settings to get a reliable cold start. If you don't do it this way you will chase your tale for weeks (ask me how I know).

8. If you want to do accurate tuning you will need a wide-band AFR meter. I use the Innovate Motorsports MTX-L for this.

9. I mounted the Megasquirt (not Microsquirt) in the rear trunk and have used WeatherPack connectors for all of the wiring. This includes two 22 pin bulkhead connectors into the engine compartment. I built my own mounting plate for the Megasquirt which includes a fuse panel, relays and breakout terminals for much of the wiring. I can build a 914 engine bay wiring harness for you using the Megasquirt standard wiring colors if you make a definite decision on the location of the Microsquirt/Megasquirt and the rest of the components that you will use.

That's a quick summary. If you have questions let me know.

By the way, on the drive to Medford and back I got near 40 MPG driving at 75 plus MPH.

Darryl


Got TPS coming from McMark.

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.

I have heard good and bad about use of the Stock CHT. Checking with Mario on the options. The GM NPT threading is not the same as the 10mm x1 stock threading so would you not need an adaptor for that?

Like the idea of the peak and hold but I don't have the abilities to build the electronics and the prebuilt ones seem expensive.

Had not considered idle control valve. I hoped that the warm up programing in the MicroSquirt would address those issues Seem like that was a wrong guess?

Have wideband O2 already installed.

As this will be a build in stages I am not sure I cam plan out the locations of everything in advance. But I would love to see some photos of your install for some ideas.

Lots more questions to follow! Should be receiving my first batch of parts today.

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Mblizzard
post Oct 5 2016, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE(Dtjaden @ Oct 5 2016, 07:10 AM) *

The DubShop CHT sensor is installed under one of the engine tin screws. It uses the GM sensor element in deferent housing.

If you are going to continue to use the 914 ignition you can't use the DubShop mini cam sync since it replaces the distributor. If you don't want to use a crank trigger wheel (which I strongly reccommend) your only option is using coil/points triggering.

Without using an ICV it will be difficult if not impossible to get hands off (really foot off) start up. You will need to use the accelerator for the first few minutes to keep the engine running until it reaches operating temperature.



The mini cam is the next stage. Starting with the coil for the tac signal for the fuel only stage.

I understand that there might be some variance in the use of the dizzy timing approach but I guess I just don't know enough about the crank trigger to determine why it would be better.

My goals are a low cost, dependable, and drivable system. Not trying to see great HP gains just a reliable system.

Can you point me to an ICV?
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jd74914
post Oct 5 2016, 10:21 AM
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QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 08:48 AM) *

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.


What is AV?

The Mini Cam Sync only gives you one pulse for determining engine phasing; for injection you really need to have more resolution. I guess you could technically use it (if the software allows), but you'd only get one trigger every 2 revolutions.

Something like this is much better. Just like the mini sync it can be installed without removing the engine. The difference is that it has multiple teeth so you could use it as a replacement crank trigger. I have one and Jarred really did a nice job making it.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=247915&hl=
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post Oct 5 2016, 10:30 AM
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Oops, just read your more recent post and saw that you want to use the coil for timing. Having increased resolution on the crank allows you better engine positioning accuracy so you can tune injection/ignition times better. Different applications, but generally better engine position accuracy results in a crisper tune.

With a T4 engine, the dizzy is driven right off of the motor so timing accuracy is very good compared to most engines. On engines with a belt/chain timing drive, there can be 2-5 degrees (or more) of error depending on engine speed, etc.
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Mblizzard
post Oct 5 2016, 10:58 AM
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QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 5 2016, 08:21 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 08:48 AM) *

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.


What is AV?

The Mini Cam Sync only gives you one pulse for determining engine phasing; for injection you really need to have more resolution. I guess you could technically use it (if the software allows), but you'd only get one trigger every 2 revolutions.

Something like this is much better. Just like the mini sync it can be installed without removing the engine. The difference is that it has multiple teeth so you could use it as a replacement crank trigger. I have one and Jarred really did a nice job making it.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=247915&hl=


Sorry AC = Air conditioning pulley is in the space the trigger would need to go.
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Mblizzard
post Oct 5 2016, 11:01 AM
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QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 5 2016, 08:21 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 08:48 AM) *

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.


What is AV?

The Mini Cam Sync only gives you one pulse for determining engine phasing; for injection you really need to have more resolution. I guess you could technically use it (if the software allows), but you'd only get one trigger every 2 revolutions.

Something like this is much better. Just like the mini sync it can be installed without removing the engine. The difference is that it has multiple teeth so you could use it as a replacement crank trigger. I have one and Jarred really did a nice job making it.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=247915&hl=


That looks like what I would want. and the coil packs are not expensive.
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cgnj
post Oct 5 2016, 11:35 AM
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QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 09:58 AM) *

QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 5 2016, 08:21 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 08:48 AM) *

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.


What is AV?

The Mini Cam Sync only gives you one pulse for determining engine phasing; for injection you really need to have more resolution. I guess you could technically use it (if the software allows), but you'd only get one trigger every 2 revolutions.

Something like this is much better. Just like the mini sync it can be installed without removing the engine. The difference is that it has multiple teeth so you could use it as a replacement crank trigger. I have one and Jarred really did a nice job making it.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=247915&hl=


Sorry AC = Air conditioning pulley is in the space the trigger would need to go.


Hi,
Member dlee has made a adaptor setup that will allow you to use a 36-1 crank trigger.
I just touched it last night. I will grab it and mock it up on the engine stand this evening. Crank position sensor in distributor will take away sequential fire option. It does reduce the number of cuts in the engine also.


I'm old, I need my AC.

Carlos
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cgnj
post Oct 5 2016, 11:44 AM
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QUOTE(Dtjaden @ Oct 4 2016, 04:44 PM) *


9. I mounted the Megasquirt (not Microsquirt) in the rear trunk and have used WeatherPack connectors for all of the wiring. This includes two 22 pin bulkhead connectors into the engine compartment. I built my own mounting plate for the Megasquirt which includes a fuse panel, relays and breakout terminals for much of the wiring. I can build a 914 engine bay wiring harness for you using the Megasquirt standard wiring colors if you make a definite decision on the location of the Microsquirt/Megasquirt and the rest of the components that you will use.

That's a quick summary. If you have questions let me know.

By the way, on the drive to Medford and back I got near 40 MPG driving at 75 plus MPH.

Darryl


Megasquirt in the trunk never crossed my mind. This was timely, saves me from putting a hole through the firewall.

40 MPG? What motor?

Carlos

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N_Jay
post Oct 5 2016, 12:11 PM
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QUOTE(cgnj @ Oct 5 2016, 12:35 PM) *

. . . .Crank position sensor in distributor will take away sequential fire option. . . .


Why is that?
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Mark Henry
post Oct 5 2016, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 5 2016, 12:30 PM) *

Oops, just read your more recent post and saw that you want to use the coil for timing. Having increased resolution on the crank allows you better engine positioning accuracy so you can tune injection/ignition times better. Different applications, but generally better engine position accuracy results in a crisper tune.

With a T4 engine, the dizzy is driven right off of the motor so timing accuracy is very good compared to most engines. On engines with a belt/chain timing drive, there can be 2-5 degrees (or more) of error depending on engine speed, etc.


Well debateable ...crankfire is still not as accurate as many believe, a 2-4 degree variance would still be the acceptable norm. As far as the dizzy drive goes it only becomes less accurate when you decelerate, and that doesn't really matter. The performance gain that most are seeing comes from the advance curve and higher voltages of modern coils.

Same debate as far as sequential and batch fired injectors. The only real advantage of sequential fuel injection is an emissions and maybe slightly better MPG. And this is at lower RPM's, over say 4000 RPM most of this becomes a moot point.

BTW I've been running EFI and crankfire since 2003.
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Mblizzard
post Oct 5 2016, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Oct 5 2016, 10:48 AM) *

QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 5 2016, 12:30 PM) *

Oops, just read your more recent post and saw that you want to use the coil for timing. Having increased resolution on the crank allows you better engine positioning accuracy so you can tune injection/ignition times better. Different applications, but generally better engine position accuracy results in a crisper tune.

With a T4 engine, the dizzy is driven right off of the motor so timing accuracy is very good compared to most engines. On engines with a belt/chain timing drive, there can be 2-5 degrees (or more) of error depending on engine speed, etc.


Well debateable ...crankfire is still not as accurate as many believe, a 2-4 degree variance would still be the acceptable norm. As far as the dizzy drive goes it only becomes less accurate when you decelerate, and that doesn't really matter. The performance gain that most are seeing comes from the advance curve and higher voltages of modern coils.

Same debate as far as sequential and batch fired injectors. The only real advantage of sequential fuel injection is an emissions and maybe slightly better MPG. And this is at lower RPM's, over say 4000 RPM most of this becomes a moot point.

BTW I've been running EFI and crankfire since 2003.


As I tend to be, I am so far ahead of myself it is not even funny. Just got email that my MicroSquirt was delivered and was left on the front porch. So I am all ready looking at jumping to the ignition and sequential injection timing and I have not even opened the first box yet!

For my engine I think I will be spending most of my time below the 4K mark so the sequential fuel injection is desirable to me but obviously not a requirement.

But I would like to go to a more modern coil set up and have the ability to control my timing. If there is a dizzy based option to control the timing I would be good with that and let the sequential go.

Something like this seems perfect but not sure where to find. Attached Image


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Mark Henry
post Oct 5 2016, 01:20 PM
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Yep, I'm just saying don't get hung up on it.
MS/micro squirt can be run on batch fire, you could worry about sequential later. Just might be easier during the learning curve.

I'm sure you can fire the ignition off of pertronix's, etc. even points, just lock out the dizzy advance and you have programmable ignition through the MS.
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cgnj
post Oct 5 2016, 02:04 PM
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This is the Dubshop cam position sensor $155.00 Dubshop Ignition
Can do batch or sequential. It is pre-order now. I have it installed and my engine is on the stand. I'll add that to my picture list.

Have we hijacked this thread yet? If so, I'm sorry.

Carlos
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Mblizzard
post Oct 5 2016, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE(cgnj @ Oct 5 2016, 12:04 PM) *

This is the Dubshop cam position sensor $155.00 Dubshop Ignition
Can do batch or sequential. It is pre-order now. I have it installed and my engine is on the stand. I'll add that to my picture list.

Have we hijacked this thread yet? If so, I'm sorry.

Carlos


Nope on the hijack. Lots of good information.

Would like to see if this could be done initially for fuel only for around $600. So far that seems possible assuming our time is free.
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