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> MicroSquit Conversion, Giving this a try
Dtjaden
post Oct 5 2016, 03:52 PM
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QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 01:27 PM) *

QUOTE(cgnj @ Oct 5 2016, 12:04 PM) *

This is the Dubshop cam position sensor $155.00 Dubshop Ignition
Can do batch or sequential. It is pre-order now. I have it installed and my engine is on the stand. I'll add that to my picture list.

Have we hijacked this thread yet? If so, I'm sorry.

Carlos


Nope on the hijack. Lots of good information.

Would like to see if this could be done initially for fuel only for around $600. So far that seems possible assuming our time is free.


Any RPM signal device that installs in the distributor or replaces the distributor immediately requires MS be used for both FI and ignition.
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Mblizzard
post Oct 5 2016, 04:49 PM
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First box of goodies!

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Dtjaden
post Oct 5 2016, 11:33 PM
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For anyone looking for a packaged solution for under $1,000 here is why it can't be done (even if you DIY). Here is what you need:

- Throttle body modify for the TPS - exchange price - $50
- Fuel injectors rebuilt and flow tested - exchange price $200
- Cylinder head temp sensor - $40
- RPM signal sensor $200
- Intake air temp sensor $20
- GM LS2 ignition coils, 4 required $100
- Throttle position sensor $30
- FI fuel pump and filters $150
- Fuel pressure regulator $100
- Microsquirt with harness - $370
- Injector driver board $100
- Fuel pump relay and wiring $15
- Power relay & wiring $20
- mounting board $10
- Fuse panel & fuses $20
- Various connectors - $50
- Package labor $500
-----------
Total. $1,975

Can it be done for less than this? Sure but not as a commercial product. And this price does not really equate to a commercial product because there is no profit margin. A minimal margin of 30% would equate to a selling price of $2,575.

Could you reduce the cost of or eliminate some of the line items? Sure, but again, not as a commercial product. You could source used LS 2 ignition coils, use the existing fuel pump and pressure regulator, skip the rebuild and testing of the fuel injectors or even do FI only. But you can't rely on used parts on a product for resale.

FI only, using the coil signal as the RPM trigger would cut about $300 from the cost but you would still have a margined selling price of $2,000.

Finally, you would need to take into account the engine configuration. 1.7, 1.8, 2.0L engines would each have unique tuning requirements. And beyond standard engine configurations such as increased displacement, compression ratio, camshaft, etc each adds a new tuning requirement. Packaged solutions are difficult if the installation environment is not controlled.

This is why the DubShop and Origional Customs sell their products at the prices they have set.

So, if 10 914 owners with stock 2.0L engines wanted to step up the plate (go SF Giants)
I would be happy to package a solution at the prices outlined above. Support past an initial period of 5 hours would be at $75 per hour. Or contact Mario at the DubShop or Mark at Origional Customs.





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McMark
post Oct 6 2016, 07:37 AM
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I don't think MicroSquirt does sequential injection. Just batch. Pair the cylinders like the factory did for the injection harness 1/4 and 3/2. This is better for injectors, but WRONG for ignition.

I tried using a signal from a distributor a long time ago and never got it to trigger reliably. When I would crank, the RPM readout on the laptop would jump all over, varying wildly, and illustrating how hard of a time MS was having reading the coil signal. When I installed a crank trigger setup, it was rock solid, even under just cranking. So much better. The distributor based wheel may work well. It's not ideal, and I haven't used one, but I can't think of any reason it wouldn't work well enough.
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Mblizzard
post Oct 6 2016, 10:38 AM
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QUOTE(McMark @ Oct 6 2016, 05:37 AM) *

I don't think MicroSquirt does sequential injection. Just batch. Pair the cylinders like the factory did for the injection harness 1/4 and 3/2. This is better for injectors, but WRONG for ignition.

I tried using a signal from a distributor a long time ago and never got it to trigger reliably. When I would crank, the RPM readout on the laptop would jump all over, varying wildly, and illustrating how hard of a time MS was having reading the coil signal. When I installed a crank trigger setup, it was rock solid, even under just cranking. So much better. The distributor based wheel may work well. It's not ideal, and I haven't used one, but I can't think of any reason it wouldn't work well enough.

Mark I am curious on the paring of the injectors. I have not read everything yet but I thought it was all batch fire meaning that all of the injectors fired at once. What you present seems to suggest the is some way to time each bank?
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Mueller
post Oct 6 2016, 10:51 AM
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QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 5 2016, 09:21 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 08:48 AM) *

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.


What is AV?

The Mini Cam Sync only gives you one pulse for determining engine phasing; for injection you really need to have more resolution. I guess you could technically use it (if the software allows), but you'd only get one trigger every 2 revolutions.

Something like this is much better. Just like the mini sync it can be installed without removing the engine. The difference is that it has multiple teeth so you could use it as a replacement crank trigger. I have one and Jarred really did a nice job making it.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=247915&hl=


Wow, that thread brings back some memories!

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...c=24043&hl=

If Jarred doesn't have anymore and has no interest in making more , i could whip a few out for you.
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Mblizzard
post Oct 6 2016, 11:25 AM
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QUOTE(Mueller @ Oct 6 2016, 08:51 AM) *

QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 5 2016, 09:21 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 08:48 AM) *

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.


What is AV?

The Mini Cam Sync only gives you one pulse for determining engine phasing; for injection you really need to have more resolution. I guess you could technically use it (if the software allows), but you'd only get one trigger every 2 revolutions.

Something like this is much better. Just like the mini sync it can be installed without removing the engine. The difference is that it has multiple teeth so you could use it as a replacement crank trigger. I have one and Jarred really did a nice job making it.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=247915&hl=


Wow, that thread brings back some memories!

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...c=24043&hl=

If Jarred doesn't have anymore and has no interest in making more , i could whip a few out for you.


Not there yet but this does hold interest for me.
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aircooledtechguy
post Oct 6 2016, 10:40 PM
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I own, run and have installed virtually every product Mario offers at thedubshop. His products are the best I've used and his after sale service is second to none.

The mini cam sensor enables full sequential injection and/or spark. For most folks, it's not really necessary. Sequential injection can on the right motor get a couple more hp and slightly better mpgs, but where it really helps is on motors with high lift & high overlap/long duration cams. It greatly smooths the idle and low rpms. I'm using one with LS2 coils on my race motor that has a pretty wild cam and it idles like stock @ 8-900 rpms. It would never do that in batch mode.

IMHO I would go with one of Mario's own ECUs. It can be used to run sequential or batch injection/spark. It comes with 2 map sensors as well as several other features. It also includes an on-board WBO2 controller!! When I convert my bus to MS, it'll have a Dubshop ECU.

I would highly recommend using a 36-1 trigger wheels rather than a bosch dizzy for triggering spark. The only dizzy I have ever used that comes close to the accuracy of his kit is a Mallory Unlite. A factory Bosch dizzy is all over the place with timing. They can vary by as much as 5-7 degrees depending on the wear on the shaft. Bosch dizzys suck IMHO. There's way better out there these days, so why bother with them to control everything??
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Dtjaden
post Oct 6 2016, 10:53 PM
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QUOTE(aircooledtechguy @ Oct 6 2016, 09:40 PM) *

I own, run and have installed virtually every product Mario offers at thedubshop. His products are the best I've used and his after sale service is second to none.

The mini cam sensor enables full sequential injection and/or spark. For most folks, it's not really necessary. Sequential injection can on the right motor get a couple more hp and slightly better mpgs, but where it really helps is on motors with high lift & high overlap/long duration cams. It greatly smooths the idle and low rpms. I'm using one with LS2 coils on my race motor that has a pretty wild cam and it idles like stock @ 8-900 rpms. It would never do that in batch mode.

IMHO I would go with one of Mario's own ECUs. It can be used to run sequential or batch injection/spark. It comes with 2 map sensors as well as several other features. It also includes an on-board WBO2 controller!! When I convert my bus to MS, it'll have a Dubshop ECU.

I would highly recommend using a 36-1 trigger wheels rather than a bosch dizzy for triggering spark. The only dizzy I have ever used that comes close to the accuracy of his kit is a Mallory Unlite. A factory Bosch dizzy is all over the place with timing. They can vary by as much as 5-7 degrees depending on the wear on the shaft. Bosch dizzys suck IMHO. There's way better out there these days, so why bother with them to control everything??

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
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Java2570
post Oct 7 2016, 07:44 AM
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I've been talking to Mario @ Dubshop about doing a MS setup for my 2056 build and my list of items will be around $1700. I was contemplating going fuel only but after reading a lot and emailing with Mario, I've gotten on board with doing ignition as well. Nate's threads (and others) have been a good inspiration to do this kind of setup. Hopefully, I'll get it all bought this winter.
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Mblizzard
post Oct 7 2016, 08:43 AM
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QUOTE(aircooledtechguy @ Oct 6 2016, 08:40 PM) *

I own, run and have installed virtually every product Mario offers at thedubshop. His products are the best I've used and his after sale service is second to none.

The mini cam sensor enables full sequential injection and/or spark. For most folks, it's not really necessary. Sequential injection can on the right motor get a couple more hp and slightly better mpgs, but where it really helps is on motors with high lift & high overlap/long duration cams. It greatly smooths the idle and low rpms. I'm using one with LS2 coils on my race motor that has a pretty wild cam and it idles like stock @ 8-900 rpms. It would never do that in batch mode.

IMHO I would go with one of Mario's own ECUs. It can be used to run sequential or batch injection/spark. It comes with 2 map sensors as well as several other features. It also includes an on-board WBO2 controller!! When I convert my bus to MS, it'll have a Dubshop ECU.

I would highly recommend using a 36-1 trigger wheels rather than a bosch dizzy for triggering spark. The only dizzy I have ever used that comes close to the accuracy of his kit is a Mallory Unlite. A factory Bosch dizzy is all over the place with timing. They can vary by as much as 5-7 degrees depending on the wear on the shaft. Bosch dizzys suck IMHO. There's way better out there these days, so why bother with them to control everything??


I think the crank trigger would be better as well. But with my car having AC I don't think I have the space to insert the trigger. So while it may not be perfect, the dizzy options seem to be what's available to me at this point.
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N_Jay
post Oct 7 2016, 08:57 AM
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QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 7 2016, 09:43 AM) *

I think the crank trigger would be better as well. But with my car having AC I don't think I have the space to insert the trigger. So while it may not be perfect, the dizzy options seem to be what's available to me at this point.

I don't understand why a Dist (with all advance locked out) and a pick up wheel installed would not be just as good as a crank fire set up?

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Mblizzard
post Oct 7 2016, 09:10 AM
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QUOTE(N_Jay @ Oct 7 2016, 06:57 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 7 2016, 09:43 AM) *

I think the crank trigger would be better as well. But with my car having AC I don't think I have the space to insert the trigger. So while it may not be perfect, the dizzy options seem to be what's available to me at this point.

I don't understand why a Dist (with all advance locked out) and a pick up wheel installed would not be just as good as a crank fire set up?



As Mark Henry stated, there is some potential "slop" in the dizzy on Decel. But I think the crank may provide more options and potential with the sensors being more standard there are greater options. But while I am still doing research, the dizzy option seems very valid. If it was not an option, then things like the Mini Cam Sync would not exist.

I am waiting to get the details on the mini cam from Mario.
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Mblizzard
post Oct 7 2016, 09:59 AM
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Ok let’s be clear. I am not no wiring expert! But as I understand things the micro squirt controls the injectors by providing ground. Meaning the controller switches ground on an off as needed to fire the injectors. Because I have low impedance injectors I have to use resistors. Below is the guidance from the manual on how to wire.

Attached Image

Based on this it shows the resistors on the controller side which is ground. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

This can’t be correct can it? Especially when it stats than an individual resistor is required for each injector.

The resistors have to go on the 12v wire don't they?
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N_Jay
post Oct 7 2016, 10:03 AM
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QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 7 2016, 10:59 AM) *

Ok let’s be clear. I am not no wiring expert! But as I understand things the micro squirt controls the injectors by providing ground. Meaning the controller switches ground on an off as needed to fire the injectors. Because I have low impedance injectors I have to use resistors. Below is the guidance from the manual on how to wire.

Attached Image

Based on this it shows the resistors on the controller side which is ground. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

This can’t be correct can it? Especially when it stats than an individual resistor is required for each injector.

The resistors have to go on the 12v wire don't they?



The order of devices in series is immaterial.

Question, how much voltage and current at are the injectors designed for?
What is the current the MS is designed to sink?
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cgnj
post Oct 7 2016, 10:03 AM
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QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 7 2016, 08:10 AM) *

QUOTE(N_Jay @ Oct 7 2016, 06:57 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 7 2016, 09:43 AM) *

I think the crank trigger would be better as well. But with my car having AC I don't think I have the space to insert the trigger. So while it may not be perfect, the dizzy options seem to be what's available to me at this point.

I don't understand why a Dist (with all advance locked out) and a pick up wheel installed would not be just as good as a crank fire set up?



As Mark Henry stated, there is some potential "slop" in the dizzy on Decel. But I think the crank may provide more options and potential with the sensors being more standard there are greater options. But while I am still doing research, the dizzy option seems very valid. If it was not an option, then things like the Mini Cam Sync would not exist.

I am waiting to get the details on the mini cam from Mario.


Hi,
This problem is a distributor issue. I guess if you go thru the trouble of locking it down, it would be less of an issue. It isn't likely that you will see a problem with a cam position sensor.

When you look at the time, effort and money to implement a imperfect mechanical solution, it doesn't make sense. It's applying yesterdays technology today. It would be different if you already had these parts in hand.

I think you started down this distributor road because of AC. I am 99.9 % certain that the stock AC pulley is not an issue with Original Customs trigger wheel setup. I either gleaned that here or discussed it directly with Mark.

I attached a pic of the AC adaptor that I will be using.

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cgnj
post Oct 7 2016, 10:13 AM
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QUOTE(N_Jay @ Oct 7 2016, 07:57 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 7 2016, 09:43 AM) *

I think the crank trigger would be better as well. But with my car having AC I don't think I have the space to insert the trigger. So while it may not be perfect, the dizzy options seem to be what's available to me at this point.

I don't understand why a Dist (with all advance locked out) and a pick up wheel installed would not be just as good as a crank fire set up?


Hi,
It's a part looking for a market. There is no way you could get more resolution than being on the crank, plus you are only going to sense the missing tooth 50% of the time required.

Carlos
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Dtjaden
post Oct 7 2016, 11:13 AM
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The crankshaft trigger wheel, either the DubShop's or Original Customs', goes between the crankshaft and the fan. It does not space the fan out farther so I don't believe it would have any impact on an A/C fan pulley.

Using the crank sensor wheel does give you the opportunity to implement FI first and add ignition later. A cam (distributor) based RPM sensor forces you to do both FI and ignition at the same time.
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N_Jay
post Oct 7 2016, 11:20 AM
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Maybe I am not picturing it correctly, but how does it go between the crank and fan and NOT space the fat out further?

It would seem a Dist trigger wheel could easily have two missing teeth and give you the same trigger as a crank wheel, but could also give you came timing should you ever want sequential FI and/or not run wasted spark.

P.S. Not arguing, just asking to learn.
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jd74914
post Oct 7 2016, 11:26 AM
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QUOTE(N_Jay @ Oct 7 2016, 12:20 PM) *

Maybe I am not picturing it correctly, but how does it go between the crank and fan and NOT space the fat out further?


There is a thick washer under the fan that gets replaced. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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