1970-72 914-6/914-4 Seatbelt Holster, O&H Info for the CW Types Options

[Tom_T]

For those CW's who care, I'll pass along some info which was given to me in a couple of emails from a renown 914 restoration expert & judge involved since from the old days when they were new.

I decided to share this with the O&H Forum where most of we CWs look for help, for informational purposes, & note that mine is an early 73 2.0 - so I have no vested interest in this item on my 914. However, I may someday be called upon to judge where this originality item may come into the judging criteria, but read below for where that comes into play.

So please don't shoot the messenger on this if you disagree, & try to treat your posted inputs congenially & helpfully to fellow members who are restoring &/or preparing their early 914s for show .... or sale.

As for my own judging background - I've been in PCA since 2009 & took the Zone 8 Judging School then (+ every year or two since), have been judging in PCA Zone 8 since 2010 at 3-5+ Concours events a year (so probably over 25-30 CdEs so far I'd guess, without looking at my past years' calendars) - but not at any PCA Parades to date nor AACA/CCCA/etc. CdE yet where originality is judged - & in the process I have gotten to know many more qualified judges & restorers of these fun 914 cars in that time than am I, as well as those whom I've met over the long time since 1970.

I got my 73 914-2.0 ("914S") in 1975 as 2nd owner, & drooled over them at the dealers & over other folks' 914s since they were released in Fall of 1969. I did shortly consider getting a new 914/4 as my 1st car in Fall 1970, but my budget was only $800 & I wouldn't have the means to make enough money to both make payments/insurance, & pay for my college degree - so I waited until after I graduated in June `74 & then had a good job to get mine in `75. So I've been around 914s since 1970, looked at many over 1975 to purchase new or used, & have owned mine since Dec. 1975, & had done a repaint/rust repair in Summer 1976, & a full cosmetic & mechanical rolling resto/refurb in 1980-83, & have been researching, parts sourcing & slowing working on it's 3rd & full resto since 2009.

My concours experience goes back further than my 914 ownership & later judging, as I'd also helped one of my uncles with his prep & restoration of his 1958 Corvette back in the mid-1960's for the much more stringent on originality Corvette Club, before it was his class record holding dragster at OC Raceway in the later 1960s, & after it was a true barn-found car that he bought from the widow of the OO in 1961, & then he used it as his DD for several years.

So I do know a bit about 914s & CdEs myself. Moreover & more importantly, I've gotten to know some folks whom I consider excellent experienced & knowledgeable resources on originality & judging of 914s, Porsches & many other marques & models - including several past & present PCA Parade level judges. Therefore, I can say that my "Deepthroat" source for this information is very reliable & extremely knowledgeable about 914s & on this particular matter - unless somebody comes forth with written documentation from Porsche to the contrary. But who does not wish to weigh-in personally on the matter here. The way some members talk on here, it is preferred by them to just read & not post themselves - & frankly I don't blame them!

In the time of my recent judging & working on researching, parts sourcing & working on my most recent/current 914 restoration of my car (albeit slowly) - I've relied on a few select sources on originality for my `73 2L's resto, & this info is from one of them, & this source may just be judging your 914 at a PCA Parade or other event someday, when originality on this item may come into play for your car's scoriing (words of warning).

In my judgement, you're foolish not to heed this helpful information.

However, today 45-47 years later, there are a bunch of 914 folks not finding them on their cars, & are rightfully a bit confused as to why not, & why they see no screw mounting holes on their left or driver longitudinal. Likewise, some may see them on the right side for those UK & Commonwealth Countries with RHD, & Japan, etc. where the like to drive RHD.

Additionally, some have posted elsewhere that their 914 has them on both sides - which I suspect the passenger side would be on either an owner add-on, or an added right one from a RHD conversion 914 (just my postulation). AFAIK VW-Porsche never did factory RHD 914s, but the cars were designed/engineered to accept RHD, so some conversion companies in the RHD countries did the conversions aftermarket.

If you read the quotes from the 914 restorer & judge friend of mine below, you will see that they were a standard factory item from 1970-72 MYs on the driver's side only, & my guess or supposition is that it was done due to interference with & difficulty in retrieving from around the e-brake on the left side in LHD countries' 914s. Ergo none was deemed needed on the right or passenger side with either fixed passenger/right seat or with the space around the movable right seat (72>), if the belt dropped down in there. It was just one of the little details which VW-Porsche included in the early cars to make them easier for the owners, & became unnecessary when the retractable 3-point belts came out in the 1973 MY.

Here is the information compiled from several posts on several topics on 914world to better illustrate & define the factory supplied seat belt holder FYI - & Thanx to those members whose information was included below from their other posts on 914world.

Posted by me from my source:
"Based on a reliable source from the old days, who is far smarter than am I on these 914 details:

"The seat belt tongue holster was installed on all 914 and 914-6 models from model year 1970 to model year 1972 until 12/31/71. One per car on the driver's side with four 2.9x9.5 lens head screws to secure Factory part number is 91480314110 If you do not have one on your drivers side, your car is not correct!"

If your screws are pulling out, then they're probably either the wrong length screws &/or the carpet isn't original, since some after market carpets are a slightly deeper pile/backer material. [Edit: the factory screws were small, so often could not penetrate past the thicker loop pile carpet, as noted in the other quote below, & you may not see any hole, but only a slight dimple or nothing.]

My supposition was always since back in the 70's, that they put this "Holster" in to get it away from jamming the folding e-brake, which became unnecessary when the retractable belts came in."

Posted by Glenn S.:
"I believe the part number is 914.803.141.10
I think it was so the seat belt did not interfere with the hand brake
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-1785-1494363085.jpg)"

Also posted by me from my source:
"One more clarification for those reading here who really care about originality for their car - I would put more weight on those posting here holsters or not from the ORIGINAL OWNERS of the subject 914s - vs. 2nd, 3rd, etc. owners "looking for holes".

"Those screws were so tiny that many did not pierce the rockers but rather just went into the thick loop carpet on the cars. Only with the perlon could one ever see any penetration.""

Link to Mike Fitton's post on his NOS set of Euro 73 MY ones:
.... (My guess is that apparently they kept the non-retractable belts longer there, or else these are 73 manufactured replacements for the early 70-72 type belts with the holster.)
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=NOS+seat+belts

The NOS Holster is in the bag with teeny-tiny screws in this pic from his post linked above:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-13069-1482003759.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-13069-1482003721.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-13069-1482003738.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-13069-1482003748.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-13069-1482003807.jpg)
^ More photos added above as later edit for clarity on the full contents of the ealry 70-72 era seatbelt kit's contents. IMHO, the fact that the single seat belt holster & its 4 small mounting screws are packaged in the bag with the rest of the seatbelt hardware, is yet another indicator that it was a standard issue item which was - or should have been - included on all 70-72 914s within the date range noted by my 914 expert.
.

And from Tradisrad's 2009 topic on installing one on his 914:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=101654

Here are his pix of it loose, installed & in-use that he posted there:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-6815-1259367172.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-6815-1259367244.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-6815-1259367311.jpg)

And pix of the 4 screw holes & as installed on the driver side longitudinal - when they occurred -
of the holes from Paul's 70 /4 from that same topic (he's the OO):
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-5727-1260075392_thumb.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-5727-1260157115_thumb.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-5727-1314577364_thumb.jpg)

And a sideview pic of Michael N's from the linked topic above:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2164-1272478646.jpg)

Pic of another one installed by SirAndy for same topic above:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-179-1280726380_thumb.jpg)
.

As a further indicator that it was intended for the 70-72 914s as a factory item - not a dealer accessory as some have contended, the pic clipped from a parts manual posted in post #14 below by SirAndy - it indicates the 914-6, /4 & 1.7 sub-models of the 70-72 MY era, & is similar but easier to read than the small pic of it where it's called a "holder" from Glenn S's. pic above. ----v

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-179-1494552787.png)
.

And if you want a headache of "screw arguments" - then you can also read on here, since there are several OOs & others posting about this era 914 with the holsters, as an FYI.

See here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...309704&st=0

Another pic from the above topic of Paul's 70 914/4 with the seat belt holster holes location called out:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-13069-1494429903.gif)

.

Thanx again to all from whom I've borrowed the photos & info herein.

I've culled the key info. from a Garage Forum post where they've decided to let it devolve into an argumentative search for elusive screw holes, despite several posts saying that the screws were too short to reach the steel with the thicker pile carpet.

If you're a true CW & in the interest of erring on the conservative side - I suggest that you forget looking for or worrying about screw holes now 45-47 years later, & Primarily pay attention to the OO reports of them on their own & other known 70-72 914s.

As for the judging for originality on this item - neither most local single, grouped nor multi-marque car shows, nor at the PCA's Zones' & Regions' Concours - all generally do not judge originality. ERgo, it should not matter whether or not you have a holster .... in most cases. However, if they're tie-breaking & either don't have another tie break methodology, or if their method is to look for non-original items/missing original items to break the tie - then you may be at a disadvantage without this seat belt holster on a 70-72 model - &/or with any other non-original items &/or missing items.

It will never show up on a COA, since it wasn't an option, but a standard item/feature.

Please do not devolve this topic into another "screw hole" argument! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

But if you're an original owner, or a later owner who can confirm original fitment of the driver side seatbelt holster in their 914s as originally delivered, &/or with any other info helpful on this topic for owners/restorers/competitors of these cars - then please do chime in! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

Also, if you have factory, PCNA, PAG or other documented information which says otherwise on this being a standard feature on all 70-72 MY cars, &/or with other date limits, &/or other information for the non-USA markets around the world, then please do add that info. here in a post below as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

Note that this sort of documentation from Porsche, PCNA, PAG, etc. by country of origin of your car, is the only type of documentation which will suffice to refute any challenge or judging deduction in those PCA Parade & other CdE's where they do judge on originality, as is a COA when it comes to optional items, colors, etc.

So it is important to force PCNA to correct any errors in their preparation of your COA if you have information to the contrary, such as a Mulroney Window Sticker (which is usually also accepted as documentation for items listed thereon).

Good Luck to you restoring/preserving/showing a 70-72 914 with this item. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

I will run this above post by my judging/restoration expert for corrections, then make them at a later date.

Again - if you post in here, please keep them to helpful info, & not arguments.

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
///////

[1970 Neun vierzehn]

Tom,

Talk about a comprehensive and thorough analysis of a rather arcane subject.....you get the trophy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

Not surprisingly, your accurate detail of this obscure element of the early cars was absolutely correct.

Kudos!

Paul

[Tom_T]

Tom,

Talk about a comprehensive and thorough analysis of a rather arcane subject.....you get the trophy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

Not surprisingly, your accurate detail of this obscure element of the early cars was absolutely correct.

Kudos!

Paul

Thanx Paul,

I'm still waiting for my buddy to review it - the real guru on this!

I'd really not thought about it for years, since the last time I saw my buddy Jerry's Bahia 71 with +/-61K original miles.

I mainly just compiled the info from others on here & what my judge/restorer buddy fed to me by email, & moved it on here, cuz the gang of 5 or whatever number were just getting too nasty & off subject over in the Garage, where the question about them was asked.

I wonder if they realize that those types of argumentative confrontations on the judging field would get them ejected & their cars disqualified? I doubt that many - or maybe any - have ever even been to a Concours.

Please do post anything else or pix that you feel will help others with 70-72's to restore or get right again for Parade etc.

Thanx again for your pix which I already used above!

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
///////

[McMark]

Just because you wrote a lot doesn't mean it's authoritative. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[SirAndy]

Just because you wrote a lot doesn't mean it's authoritative. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[gandalf_025]

OK, I just went out and checked my car..... Which is in a semi disassembled state...
Here are pictures of the area in question and the factory rug that is still on the car.

I have owned this car, # 619 since 4/73. I bought it from the dealership that sold it new.
The original owner traded the car with 23,000 miles and he didn't know which end of a screw driver to hold..
Here is the area.. {forgive the glue}



and a picture of the factory rug in that area..



Personally I don't see any sign of it ??? Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot ??

[Tom_T]

As noted in the 2nd quote from the expert judge in my O.P., the screws apparently did not always penetrate the steel, & the carpet may have been changed out or the holes disappeared over time - as the fibers tend to go back to original weave, if it were removed.

I think that the strongest evidence that they were included on all cars, was that the holster & screws was included in the NOS factory seatbelt kit posted by the other member who's pix I included in the first post - in addition to the expert opinion of a judge/restorer whose information I trust implicitly.

If you're not trying to restore yours to full originality for PCA Parade or other CdEs where strict originality is judged, or where you're looking to sell it to a purist - or unless you like the idea of having one to keep the belt out of the e-brake area - then I wouldn't sweat it!

As Paul said - it's a mundane detail only on early MYs which really doesn't affect my 73 2.0!

However, with 914-6's now reaching the $100K+ mark - if I had one which I was restoring or showing, then I'd certainly spend the time & effort to make it perfect, & get the holster! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)

PS - Gandolf, I also meant to say that when PCNA sent out their District Service Mgr. out to my house a few years back to confirm the HO & BO Recalls were not done, & which color interior, fog lights & center console were originally on my 73 914-2.0 from the factory, he said that back in the day the dealers would put 2 cars side-by-side & could completely swap interiors between them for a customer request - & he would know having been a Porsche Tech/SA/SM for several SoCal P-dealers (no names, as I won't subject anyone else from now on to the abuse on here).

He was able to confirm that mine was Beige since PCNA's COA people misinterpreted that code as black, & that no HO Recall was ever done (battery cover & fuel lines), that the fog lights & dash switch had been removed by the selling dealer since the wires were still there & snipped, & same for center console - snipped wires, marks from the under dash bracket & screw hole threads used, & his personal knowledge that all 914-2.0s in the US market in that early part of the 73 MY (built 8/31/72 & sold new 11/6/72) were fitted out as the advertised "914S" with both Appearance & Performance Groups, but couldn't confirm/not that the BO Recall was done (Early non-hubcentric Fuchs 2L wheels used on the new hub-centric "self-centering" front hubs) because the dealer had talked the OO into switching to Rivieras instead, & just kept one or both sets of 5 Fuchs 2L wheels for resale at 100% profit (common back then).

So with all that said, your carpet when first sold, or thereafter by the dealer could have been swapped out (e.g.: if it had wear or stains etc.); or the OO/PO could've removed the holster.

You could look for any evidence of holes in the carpet at the spot, but then again - that would mean nothing to any Parade/etc. judges if you entered it. If you're not entering & not worried for your resto, no big deal. But if you are concerned or if you just want to cover all originality bases, then I'd recco adding it now. Your car, your choice.

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[SirAndy]

As noted in the 2nd quote from the expert judge in my O.P., the screws apparently did not always penetrate the steel

This makes no sense what-so-ever.

Please do as all a favor and try to screw a sheet metal screw into your long without first drilling a hole.
It is impossible to fasten the holster correctly without first drilling holes.


If this was indeed done by the factory, all of the early cars would have the holes drilled into the long.

The fact that so many early cars do NOT have the holes and show no sign of those holes ever being there makes your assertion that these were factory installed highly implausible.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

[Tom_T]

Just because you wrote a lot doesn't mean it's authoritative. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

OK - I'm only going to answer Andy's & Mark's 2 useless posts above for one reason - to clarify for you two & anyone else reading here - how Concours judging really works, & how to comport yourselves on judging challenges.

Others - feel free to skip below, to where I cover the judging, challenges & expert opinions are handled in CdEs....

NO, it is authoritative because it did come from a respected & authoritative judge/restorer 914 source - & that DOES make it authoritative!

And certainly just because you cannot find screw holes, does not make it not so! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

And to be clear - other than my explaining my judging quals & 914 ownership history in that 1st post - I only COMPILED & EDITED this information from others & my 914 judge/restoration expert - so technically I didn't "[write" a lot] Mark!

While screw holes are certainly contributory evidence that one was/is there - it is not conclusive evidence that they were not when missing the holes - as stated by the expert whom I quoted, the screws apparently often did not penetrate the steel longitudinal behind the carpet.

As I noted in the reply above to gandolf - the fact that the holster & screws IS INCLUDED in the early car's non-retractable kit, is better evidence that they were in fact included or expected to be included on all 70-72 914s.

Moreover, if one were to attempt to to argue with a judge or judging team on the Concours field at a PCA Parade, Pebble Beach, Amelia Island, etc. against the deduction of points for not having one, when they take the position that it should be there as an expected original equipment item, then you would lose that challenge - unless you have specific written documentation from Porsche/PCNA/PAG on their letterhead that says to the contrary. This is true for any originality item or issue.

YES Mark - in answer to your prior query: "Believe the expert...?" on the other Garage topic about this matter - YES THEY are the experts on that Concours field, & you must have conclusive documentation to challenge this item or anything else which they determine should be on or not on your particular make, year, model, sub-model, trim package, etc. of car!

And - yes Mark - the other judges will defer to the superior knowledge of a particular judge on a particular car's originality, when they are a better expert on it. What I have shared here is from a judge to whom I certainly would & do herein defer.

That's just the way it works, just like the main Ref deferring to the Line Judge/Asst. Ref or other Ref closer to the action in any sport!

That is the way CdE judging works - just as any other competition or sport has rules & judges or referees - & their word is generally final, & can only be challenged under the competition's/sport's set rules for challenges.

Additionally - your car's score can be challenged by a competing car's owner at PCA Parade & many of the other CdEs, when a competing car has some original equipment part(s) that yours lacks &/or something not original, & it requires the same documentation to refute that it was original - or for a challenge that something is a repro part, you pull off the challenged part in question to check for a factory part number or other marking(s) proving it was original, & not a reproduction.

That latter point is critical, since so many 914 parts are now NLA, & this presents a huge challenge to 914 restorers & Concours competitors today.

While Mark W/914Rubber, Dansk, SSI, Vredstein, etc. are filling the NLA gaps admirably with very good & often better-than-original parts - they are still subject to a losing originality challenge.

If anyone doubts this, then they should go read the PCA Parade, AACA, CCCA or whatever group the CdE event is run under Concours rules themselves, & then plan accordingly to compete per those rules, & be prepared to lose points for anything not to their standards. If you two guys &/or others want to question how it all works, then you too should read the dang rules, & not post your unfounded opinions here.

IMHO any competitor should read & fully understand the rules anyway, & I recommend that any series CW actually go to the same or a similar CdE by the same sponsoring organization CdE - as what they wish to enter - in order to see & clearly understand how it all works: to follow the judges around & see how they judge a similar or close car, & to talk with the judges before or after their judging period (where they allow it - PCA Zones/Regions generally do, maybe at Parade if outside the judging period).

Many PCA Zones/Regions also run Concours Prep schools for their local &/or national Parade Concours, which you will find very helpful in both understanding how the judging works, & how to prepare your cars.

PCA Parade also runs a Tech Quiz Competition for folks who like to test their knowledge of Porsche minutia, where the same types of judging/scoring & challenge rules would apply FYI.

A note of caution to those reading here that are serious CdE competitors - please keep in mind that the judges, timers, committee & staff putting on the Concours are all volunteers taking up their personal time to prepare, qualify & be there - just so you can have fun & compete at the show.

So please DO treat them respectfully & politely, shake their hands & thank them for their work, & listen to or read any of their comments on judging your car, so that you can take steps to improve it next time.

Certainly never be rude, angry, argumentative, etc. with the judges & staff. Just take deep breaths & go with the flow! .... and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

An additional note of caution to those reading here who are serious CdE competitors - The types of comments by Mark & Andy above, & their & other folks' more argumentative & confrontational - shall I say nasty posts - at the other recent Garage Forum on this topic, in challenging the judge/restoration expert in question (& aimed at me as messenger) about whether these - or any other items - were original factory equipment, would not go over well at all.

At the very least - the judge could give you the maximum deduction, rather than lesser or minimum deduction allowed for the item(s) in question - since by doing thus, yourself proving that you know it was possibly required - & screwing your own self on your score!

And at the worst - you could be ejected from the event &/or your car eliminated & disqualified from the competition - then all of your time, effort & expense in preparing your car is down the toilet! You could also get yourself permanently banned or suspended for an extended period, if you're especially nasty with the judges!

I've seen it happen & it is not pleasant!

No judge wants a headache from your haranguing them!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fighting19.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spank.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blowtorch.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fyou1.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blowup.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/evilgrin.gif)

I hope that my clearly excessive use of emoticons above makes this point painfully clear to all.

Just treat others in the way in which YOU want to be treated, & you'll be okay!

And while we do not judge originality at most/all PCA Zone & Region level Concours, we do judge the preparation, detailing & cleanliness of your P-cars. So while this item would not be deducted if not there - but if it is installed - then make sure that it's clean & all screws are there & in tight, etc.

If we see 1 or more screws missing or hanging loose or backed out more than a smidge, or dirt on it or in the inside of the slot, then you'll probably lose points if the Interior Judge sees that. And note that in Zone 8 we judge interiors at all levels, from Wash & Shine Div. (Exterior & Interior) - through Street & Preservation Divs. (Exterior, Interior, Storage & Engine) - up to Full Concours Div. (Exterior, Interior, Storage, Engine, & Undercarriage (Belly/Underside) With & Without Engine).

And do NOT argue that you don't think you should have to clean it, or it was clean before, you had all screws before, or whatever else you think it should be done about the judging. the judges have to take judging school before they can judge, & - yes - they can make mistakes, but it's not your job to harass them about it. Just ASK the team's head judge about the instance, & let them either clarify or rectify it for you.

Likewise for our shows, if you were to argue with a judge over those preparation type deductions in the same manner as noted above regarding originality arguments, then you could suffer the same disqualification or ejection consequences. So be NICE!

Beyond that - to explain why or why not a particular 914 isn't showing signs of it now almost half a century later having had a seat belt holster - personally I really don't care - REALLY! Because if someone shows up in front of my source judge/restorer on this item with a 70-72 914 - or any other judge who knows this tiny detail - at Pebble Beach, Amelia, PCA Parade, etc. where originality is judged - then they'll probably or possibly be marked down for not having it - period, end of story!

And one more comment on your treatment of me on this matter Andy & Mark -
Andy, you as owner of this site - & both of you as Admins set an extremely poor example for the membership, on how to treat members on this website. You've both essentially trolled me over here to just harass me. This gives a very bad reputation to this site, as well as yourselves personally.

Look - I never even looked at this topic when it first came up on the Garage Forum a few days ago, since it did NOT apply to my 914 - not at all!

Then my judge/restorer buddy sent me an email about the correct info in his expertise on early 914s, which answered the original question of the OP on the other Garage Forum, as well as for those looking to compete in Concours where originality is judged.

So I fatefully decided to share with the OP & the membership here - that information from a source whom not only do I trust implicitly, but who is also respected by other judges at far higher levels than I for 914 expertise, & whose opinion on this item would indeed stand at any event in which that judge/restorer were judging or consulted on the matter. PERIOD!

You 2 & a couple of others then chose to challenge, put-down & denigrate me personally, for conveying information from another expert.

Is it any wonder that other more respected 914 folks won't post on 914world nor be involved on here, & that only a very small percentage of the 10s of 1000s of registered members ever post on here anymore??

Why would anyone want to subject themselves to such abuse!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

AFAIK - neither of you has ever restored or entered a concours with your 914s where originality is judged - & I don't know if you've ever even gone to a Concours to observe the judging - let alone ever served as a judge at one where originality is judged!

So how heck can you be "experts" on that - & challenge info that a known expert judge has sent along via me, even if anonymously!?

Why would they ever post or contribute further info to the 914world community - upon seeing your treatment of the MESSENGER delivering the information!!?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Moreover, your erroneous opinions & commentary only serves to confuse those CW's with a 70-72 914 who are reading here, & who want to "cover all of their originality bases," by your falsely claiming to know how Concours Judging works.

Look - go to a PCA Concours in your areas, talk to the judges & follow them around, ask if anyone there has judged at PCA Parade, & then ask that Parade judge all the questions you want about how it works & what is judged, & whether or not a known Porsche model's expert opinion would stand on an item like this, or any other originality issue/item, with the rest of the judging team.

Doing so Mark will make you a better restorer for fully original concours cars - if that's what you want to do, & it would make you Andy a far better & more knowledgeable figurehead for this Forum.

If you ever have the CdE's rules' accepted documentation from the manufacturer that this seat belt holster item was not a factory item on all 70-72 914s - then post a pic of it here for all the other owners of them to see, print & have on hand for a Concours Challenge if ever needed. That would be a far better service to members, than the sort of unusable know-it-all opinions which you've both been posting.

Otherwise, all of your opining on screw holes or not is just useless garbage to the 914 owners in the Concours & max value original/restored 914s world!

Again - I don't have a 70-72 914 - so I really do not care for myself, but I do care that you would do such a misinformation disservice to other members & non-members researching on here for their own cars of that era's restoration & preparation.

So I respectfully request that you stop the sniping, & invite you to post any documentation which IS acceptable to the Concours governing bodies - such as PCA, AACA, CCCA, etc. - on the non-originality of this item.

More "no screw holes" arguments & pix are just NOT going to sway any judge who takes the position that they should be there - period & exclamation point - & may only get competitors into trouble & lose points, because they go off saying to a judge something like: "Well Andy who 'owns' 914world & McMark who restores them, & a bunch of other guys on there say they don't have it either said so, since they don't all have screw holes!"

If nothing else, the fact that the holster (one only) is included in the early NOS non-retractable seat belt kit from the factory, & that there appear to be far more 70-72 914 owners chiming in that they have or had them - especially the original owners - & the expert opinion of another highly respected & long term since day one of the 914's run says that they were - trumps any screw hole arguments.

Then again in reality too - somebody may go to great lengths to keep or find & (re-)place one, & then never get it judged one way or another at Parade or any other originality based Concours! That's just the luck of the draw. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Dun with you guys! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

As noted in the 2nd quote from the expert judge in my O.P., the screws apparently did not always penetrate the steel

This makes no sense what-so-ever.

Please do as all a favor and try to screw a sheet metal screw into your long without first drilling a hole.
It is impossible to fasten the holster correctly without first drilling holes.


If this was indeed done by the factory, all of the early cars would have the holes drilled into the long.

The fact that so many early cars do NOT have the holes and show no sign of those holes ever being there makes your assertion that these were factory installed highly implausible.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

A - NOT my assertion.

B - The expert said that not all were drilled.

C - Read the above A & B as to why not all have screw holes.

D - No screw holes is apparently NOT definitive.

E - NOT my assertion, but that of the expert who's info I am relaying , see A.

F - You are NOT the expert, nor are you a Parade/AACA/CCCA judge - my expert is - so your opinion of plausability will not hold water on the judging field with any judging team.

G - IF you had owned your 914-6 & /4 since new to positively say it never came with, & were an adult & involved first hand in 914s in 1970-onward, &/or IF you have documentation from Porsche that it was not on all 914s 70-72 MYs - then an originality expert you may be for those level of judges & restorers.

You are not, so they would not listen to your screw opinion, but rather to my expert's opinion - if it were a choice between the 2 of you!

That is just the way PCA Parade, Pebble Beach, Amelia Island & other AACA, CCCA, etc. originality based concours work pal! Get over it!

PS - In fairness to your continued puzzlement on screw holes - just consider this postulated possibility by me on maybe why no screw holes - maybe the guy on the line at Karmann in Osnabruck who was supposed to use the jig to drill the holes for mounting the holster (probably among several other tasks at his station) didn't always quite get around to drilling them on some cars, & since Karmann built the body shells for both /4 & -6 versions - they would also show up on some Stuttgart assembled 914-6's. Then when the interior assembly person responsible for mounting the holsters in 914/4's at Karmann/Osnabruck & the guy for 914-6's at Porsche/Stuttgart screws in the holster over the carpet assuming ther are holes there (is probably told not to worry if not) & then it is only screwed into the carpet alone - as at least one other owner/member on here has stated at one of the Garage Forum posts on this matter, & as I quoted from my source. maybe, just maybe?? Another possibility since the holster obviously came with the non-retractable seatbelt kits from whichever OEM supplier(s) made them (pix above) - is that they should've been there, & maybe should've been mounted or maybe not, & the packet with them & screws which weren't mounted got thrown into the glovebox or center pocket/cushion or center parcel box??

In the end on the concours field it really doesn't matter, since they can, may & possibly/probably would look for it & score accordingly - no matter waht I, you or anyone else thinks on here "should be" or probably was or was not. It's "above my pay grade" & if ever called upon to judge at Parade/etc., then I would be obliged to follow the applicable rules & positions of the experts on that or any other matter.

Arguing the particular source judge/restorer's position on this matter with me changes nothing, nor does arguing the Concours rules. Again - above my pay grade!

However, it does serve to be insulting to me personally to keep harping on me - as if I am the creator of this information & the CdE rules, since I've said that I was not since my first posting it on the other topic about this.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
Tom
///////

[SirAndy]

...
NO, it is authoritative because it did come from a respected & authoritative judge/restorer 914 source - & that DOES make it authoritative!
...

No, it doesn't. There is no evidence, no proof, just anecdotes and hearsay.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

If you really want to proof these were factory installed, find some bulletins, memos, production line pictures, recalls, schematics, installing procedures, find clear cutoff dates that separate cars with holes from cars without holes.
You know, the things one does to establish actual facts.

Anything other than "someone told me so" ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[SirAndy]

... as stated by the expert whom I quoted, the screws apparently often did not penetrate the steel longitudinal behind the carpet ...

Again, you are avoiding my questions.

Have you ever tried to screw a sheet metal screw into a 914 long without drilling a hole first?
Please, do us all a favor and try it yourself, then report back here.

This make NO SENSE, you are suggesting that those tiny screws were screwed through the carpet and into the heavy gauge STEEL long by hand without first drilling any holes.

Does the absurdity of that claim even register the with you at all?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[SirAndy]

The current PET lists 914.803.141.10 as "retaining bar" ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Tom_T]

... as stated by the expert whom I quoted, the screws apparently often did not penetrate the steel longitudinal behind the carpet ...

Again, you are avoiding my questions.

Have you ever tried to screw a sheet metal screw into a 914 long without drilling a hole first?
Please, do us all a favor and try it yourself, then report back here.

This make NO SENSE, you are suggesting that those tiny screws were screwed through the carpet and into the heavy gauge STEEL long by hand without first drilling any holes.

Does the absurdity of that claim even register the with you at all?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Listen Andy - I am neither avoiding your stupid question - of course you cannot put that tiny screw through steel, & NO I don't need to friggin try!

I NEVER said it would - YOU misread & misstated it!

Go back read stuff thoroughly, & I'm sure that you will see.

I do NOT give a flying f**k IF you our any of the other self-appointed internet experts think it is or isn't should or shouldn't be factory!

You are arguing with the WRONG person, & I am not going to continue!

You are stuck on one issue, which really won't matter when you are in front of the judge on a car! If THEY think it should be there, then it could be dinged in points.

STOP the friggin argument with me!

Take your objections to the PCA Concours Rules Committee & see how far you get!

Bye! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

The current PET lists 914.803.141.10 as "retaining bar" ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Yes, & your crazy Germans call the rubber seal under the side mirrors on the doors "Desk Pad" - what of it!!?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

...
NO, it is authoritative because it did come from a respected & authoritative judge/restorer 914 source - & that DOES make it authoritative!
...

No, it doesn't. There is no evidence, no proof, just anecdotes and hearsay.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

If you really want to proof these were factory installed, find some bulletins, memos, production line pictures, recalls, schematics, installing procedures, find clear cutoff dates that separate cars with holes from cars without holes.
You know, the things one does to establish actual facts.

Anything other than "someone told me so" ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

I don't need the proof, my car doesn't have them!

And the expert judges do NOT need to prove it to you either!

And I've stated that this is the person who contacted me to provide some helpful info to the rest of this group .... NOT "someone told me"!

If you doubt that, then YOU go contact a Parade 914 judging expert at PCA & ask them!

You can ask either on this specific item or in general, but please, please do for your own sanity, ask them if their word is final, & how you as entrant can challenge such decisions or challenges from other members!

Now, give me a break & go do that for yourself.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
Tom
///////

[gms]

First I think Mark would be able to identify screw holes in a longitudinal, suggesting otherwise is ridiculous.

I don’t believe it would be possible to drive a screw thru the carpet and the longitudinal panel without a pilot hole because the screws used were not self-tapping. I believe the holes would be drilled when the holster was installing like on other parts on the 914.

Every time you think you have an absolute in the production of Porsches (1949-1980s) you will find an exception. My personal theory is that the cars without holes are outliers this is why I think a count of cars with holes and those without is in order before we can make a judgement

[gms]

The current PET lists 914.803.141.10 as "retaining bar" ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Andy I can assure you with 100% certainty that I bought these from Porsche in 1997.
However I cannot say that is the part number with 100% certainty.

still in the bag

[gms]

there is this