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> camber settings, What are you guys running?
914dave
post May 25 2017, 10:47 AM
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Won't be long til we're off to alignment and corner balance. The car is mostly street use and probably a monthly autocross. 21mm bars up front and 180# adjustable coilovers in the rear. 23mm front sway bar and the front spindles are raised 19mm. Torque bias limited slip and a stock rear sway bar.
Are you guys running stock settings? I don't mind a little more aggressive but it's not an all out competition car. I'll sacrifice a little more tire wear for performance. What have you guys run that works?
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Dave_Darling
post May 25 2017, 02:26 PM
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A starting point:

-1.5 camber rear.
-1.0 camber front.
A little toe-in all the way around. (On the order of 1/16" total.)
Max-ish caster in front, about 6 degrees.

In general on a street car you want to keep the toe-in on all four corners. For an autoX specialist, going with a small amount of toe-out in the front can help the car to turn in a bit better. But the car becomes more "dirty" and you have to be able to constantly pay attention to where it is going--look away for a moment and it is liable to change lanes on you.

More negative camber can help grip in the corners, but that's at the expense of uneven tire wear, and often a little bit of traction in braking.

Note that with a car at or near stock ride height you can max out the negative camber relatively easily. Some cars won't give you more than about 2 degrees worth without lowering or other modifications.

--DD
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okieflyr
post May 25 2017, 04:24 PM
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Dave,
Do you have someone in mind to do the alignment?
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914dave
post May 25 2017, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE(okieflyr @ May 25 2017, 06:24 PM) *

Dave,
Do you have someone in mind to do the alignment?

Kevin
I have talked to Paul at Performance Automotive in Malvern. Do you have someone you recommend?

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okieflyr
post May 25 2017, 04:44 PM
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You might want to talk to Bill Sherwood @ CSE in Oreland. He was very active in the SCCA back in the day. I had them do my alignment/corner balance a number of years ago and was pleased. I would suggest a look over and visit to see if they feel comfortable to you. There are fancier places, but the rear alignment on these cars can take a little bit of time that not everyone has the patience or ability to do well.
http://cseauto.com/site/about-us/owners-message/
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914dave
post May 26 2017, 04:15 AM
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I'm familiar with Bill, Dion has actually used him before for some repairs. He's right around the corner from me. Performance used to be a Porsche only shop. Have since expanded into other German cars. I stopped to talk to them about the alignment. They gave me a tour of the shop and asked if I wanted to be present while the work was being done. Paul has been setting up street autocross cars for years and will be doing my car himself. So I'm pretty sure I'm going to give them a try. It's right near where I work too. I was just trying to get some numbers to get started.
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ChrisFoley
post May 26 2017, 04:40 AM
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I don't like to use more than 3/4 degree negative camber on a dual use street car. Tire wear on the inside edge is drastically increased to achieve a modest improvement in corner grip.
More often I set street cars up at 1/2 degree negative all around.
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914dave
post May 26 2017, 06:10 AM
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QUOTE(Racer Chris @ May 26 2017, 06:40 AM) *

I don't like to use more than 3/4 degree negative camber on a dual use street car. Tire wear on the inside edge is drastically increased to achieve a modest improvement in corner grip.
More often I set street cars up at 1/2 degree negative all around.


Thanks Chris. This is exactly what I was looking for. Performance gains vs tire wear.
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HalfMoon
post Jun 26 2017, 10:55 AM
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I've recently found a Porsche shop here in the Eastern Panhandle of WV that can do four wheel alignment and corner balancing and I've finally finished with most of my suspension and brake work (must replace atrocious spacers near future), so I'm wondering what recipe's the go fast crowd might suggest?
Dave and Chris, please chim in!

The stats:

V-8

Hankook Ventus V12 evo 225/50ZR16 front, 2.5” spacers (atrocious I know, thanks PO)
Koni red front
Stock sway bar front
Turbo tie rods

Fuzion ZRi 245/45R16 rear, 3” spacers (nutz, thanks PO)
Koni yellow with perches
220 springs
Stock sway bar rear
Boxed trailing arms
Rear chassis stiffening kit.

1986 911SC front hubs

Primarily street with no need for tire longevity, sometime track day car Summit Point WV

Additional info-Sheridan standard widebody. Quite a bit lighter than stock.
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914dave
post Jun 26 2017, 11:24 AM
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QUOTE(HalfMoon @ Jun 26 2017, 12:55 PM) *

I've recently found a Porsche shop here in the Eastern Panhandle of WV that can do four wheel alignment and corner balancing and I've finally finished with most of my suspension and brake work (must replace atrocious spacers near future), so I'm wondering what recipe's the go fast crowd might suggest?
Dave and Chris, please chim in!

The stats:

V-8

Hankook Ventus V12 evo 225/50ZR16 front, 2.5” spacers (atrocious I know, thanks PO)
Koni red front
Stock sway bar front
Turbo tie rods

Fuzion ZRi 245/45R16 rear, 3” spacers (nutz, thanks PO)
Koni yellow with perches
220 springs
Stock sway bar rear
Boxed trailing arms
Rear chassis stiffening kit.

1986 911SC front hubs

Primarily street with no need for tire longevity, sometime track day car Summit Point WV

Additional info-Sheridan standard widebody. Quite a bit lighter than stock.


I'm going with Chris's recommendations. Because of wheel offset that may be all I can run.
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ChrisFoley
post Jun 26 2017, 11:55 AM
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QUOTE(HalfMoon @ Jun 26 2017, 12:55 PM) *

... Chris, please chim in!


I would follow the same recommendations as above with emphasis on this:
Make sure you have toe-in at the rear wheels, approx. 1/16" both sides. Boxed trailing arms may make this difficult.
Increase the front torsion bars to 21mm.
The widened front lowers the effective spring rate due to suspension geometry.
Get a bigger, adjustable front anti-sway bar.
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HalfMoon
post Jun 26 2017, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE(Racer Chris @ Jun 26 2017, 01:55 PM) *

QUOTE(HalfMoon @ Jun 26 2017, 12:55 PM) *

... Chris, please chim in!


I would follow the same recommendations as above with emphasis on this:
Make sure you have toe-in at the rear wheels, approx. 1/16" both sides. Boxed trailing arms may make this difficult.
Increase the front torsion bars to 21mm.
The widened front lowers the effective spring rate due to suspension geometry.
Get a bigger, adjustable front anti-sway bar.


Thanks Racer Chris!
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Dave_Darling
post Jun 26 2017, 05:35 PM
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For a track car, the usual rule of thumb is "as much negative camber as you can get"--subject to the numbers being the same left to right, and close-ish front to rear. Radial tires like lots and lots of negative camber, typically.

Street cars like quite a bit less, due to concerns about tire wear. And to the fact that they aren't usually cornering as hard as a track car, so they may never use the outer part of the tire.

If your car is both, you have to pick your compromise.

And in the end, you will need to do testing to see what works best for your car in your particular use. Different drivers like different setups, and one driver may like different setups on different tracks. So take any recommendations as a starting point, and then do your own testing to find what works best for you.

--DD
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HalfMoon
post Jun 26 2017, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Jun 26 2017, 07:35 PM) *

For a track car, the usual rule of thumb is "as much negative camber as you can get"--subject to the numbers being the same left to right, and close-ish front to rear. Radial tires like lots and lots of negative camber, typically.

Street cars like quite a bit less, due to concerns about tire wear. And to the fact that they aren't usually cornering as hard as a track car, so they may never use the outer part of the tire.

If your car is both, you have to pick your compromise.

And in the end, you will need to do testing to see what works best for your car in your particular use. Different drivers like different setups, and one driver may like different setups on different tracks. So take any recommendations as a starting point, and then do your own testing to find what works best for you.

--DD

Thanks DD! I appreciate the input :-)
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PlaysWithCars
post Jun 27 2017, 11:43 PM
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For me the cars have always been driven on the street but only a limited number of miles each year. The tires are going to get too old long before they get worn out from excessive camber. So, I've run max camber (~-1.7 deg up front, I don't remember but think about the same in the rear), slight toe out up front, and zero toe in the rear. It makes the car responsive and fun to drive. I've had little to no problem with tramlining (following grooves in the road) with this set up.

Lots of camber will wear the inside edges of the tire and it will be accelerated if you run much toe. I've found more camber, less toe to be a good set up with moderate wear and good performance.

Depending on how many miles you'll be putting on it each year, I say go for the most performance you can w/o burning through tires before they they are too old and need to be replaced due to age.
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LowBridge
post Jun 28 2017, 06:26 AM
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QUOTE(Racer Chris @ Jun 26 2017, 01:55 PM) *

QUOTE(HalfMoon @ Jun 26 2017, 12:55 PM) *

... Chris, please chim in!


I would follow the same recommendations as above with emphasis on this:
Make sure you have toe-in at the rear wheels, approx. 1/16" both sides. Boxed trailing arms may make this difficult.
Increase the front torsion bars to 21mm.
The widened front lowers the effective spring rate due to suspension geometry.
Get a bigger, adjustable front anti-sway bar.


Chris if this is how you have my car setup then it works really well... the car just hunts for the apex and very crisp turn in moment.
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ChrisFoley
post Jun 28 2017, 07:08 AM
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QUOTE(plays with cars @ Jun 28 2017, 01:43 AM) *

...
Depending on how many miles you'll be putting on it each year, I say go for the most performance you can w/o burning through tires before they they are too old and need to be replaced due to age.

The best street performance is available at camber settings of less than 3/4 degree negative. Only on track with very sticky tires is it possible to get additional performance from increased camber settings.
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Mark Henry
post Jun 28 2017, 07:29 AM
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What do you guys think about doing your own alignments?
There's real cheap tools for setting camber or you could set up something that uses a tilt box.
Toe in is easy to make a fixture to do that.

I'm asking because I have 4 cars that will need alignment soon and I do at least 1-3 cars a year. The shops are all 60+ minute round trips, up to a couple hours there minimum, so by time I get back a better part of the day is shot.
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LowBridge
post Jun 28 2017, 07:32 AM
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QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Jun 28 2017, 09:29 AM) *

What do you guys think about doing your own alignments?
there's real cheap tools for setting camber or you could set up something that uses a tilt box.
Toe in is easy to make a fixture to do that.

I'm asking because I have 4 cars that will need alignment soon and I do at least 1-3 cars a year. The shops are all 60+ minute round trips, up to a couple hours there minimum, so by time I get home a better part of the day is shot.


with even simply tools this is very easy to do... however and this is the big however, you must have a flat working surface otherwise it's not going to work and this is why I had Chris do mine..
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Mark Henry
post Jun 28 2017, 07:47 AM
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QUOTE(LowBridge @ Jun 28 2017, 09:32 AM) *


with even simply tools this is very easy to do... however and this is the big however, you must have a flat working surface otherwise it's not going to work and this is why I had Chris do mine..


Yep, I was thinking about that because my floor isn't perfect. My idea on that is bolt plates to the floor in the four corners that are perfectly level. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
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