Non-OEM Turbo Tie rod, warning!!! Options

[anthony]

I think some mythology is developing regarding these turbo tie rods.

I've read that there was a bad batch of boots a while back that affected all the turbo tie-rod kits. On the 911 board someone reported recently boots going bad on a set of Lemforder turbo tie-rods.

[bondo]

QUOTE (Mueller @ May 13 2005, 02:48 PM)

it does not matter if it's a Porsche or a Saturn, if all 4 wheels have adjustments, then all 4 "should" be adjusted and or checked....that's like draining only half the oil in your motor during an oil change..........

Yup! And alot of alignment places like to "center" the steering wheel with tie rod adjustmenst only. If it's not close the steering wheel needs to be pulled and put on straight.

But if the alignment guy is trying to tighten the tie rod end on further to eliminate toe-out, he has bigger problems (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

[anthony]

The other thing is that a turbo tie-rod install doesn't require a full re-alignment. All they have to adjust is toe and they shouldn't be charging $200 for that.

[MarkG]

all spacers are installed and correct....EXCEPT: LOOOOONG shot, but I just called the shop and they will check it out:

when I installed the rack spacers for bump steer I did them wrong: I didn't lossen the steering column lock nut like in the instructions (which would lift UP the rack), since cross member was out I just put the spacers in when I re-installed the cross member, so the rack was NOT moved but cross member WAS....which would shorten the distance from the tie rods to the A-arm by the space of the thickness of the spacers (I think)...which is exactly how much too short the tie rods are.

If this turns out to be the problem my non-OEM kits STILL has crappy boots.....

[cametal]

What if you REMOVE the spacers? This would shorten the overall length of the tie rod assembly. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

[dmenche914]

Anyone that got aftermarket turbo tie rods, please post to the list the supplier, or if the shop bought them for you, please ask the shop about their supplier, and post who supplied them. It will be real helpful information for the rest of us, to know what to avoid.

If some one else installed them, a castle nut does not mean for sure you got the good one, if in the case the shop that installed them pitches the non-stock nyloc, and installs with the correct castle nut and pin.

My Triumph Spitfire uses nylocs on the suspenion parts, including the tie rod ball joint end, so it is not unheard of, but I suspect the the castle nut and pin are a better, and a safer attachment method on this critical part, it could kill you if it fails. On my Triumph, several new nylocs , torqued to specification did loosen up over time, so I make it a habit to check them periodically, Since the 914 is suppossed to have a pin in the castle nut, I think that is the safest thing to do, aftermarket or OEM.

thanks

PS labour rates can vary a good bit depending on locality, and type of shop doing the work.

[Cap'n Krusty]

QUOTE (Travis Neff @ May 13 2005, 09:27 AM)

Lastly the tie rod end only has a nylock nut rather than the castellated jobbie. At some point I will have to replace the accordian boots and use some Lemforder (sp?) ends. Live, learn and purchase again...

Every Lemforder or TRW tie rod end and ball joint I've seen in the last 10 years or so has had the nylock nuts and non-drilled stud, with the possible exception of some NOS parts. Cotter pins are old technology, replaced by the much easier to use and better nyloc system. I've done only a few turbo tie rod conversions, and I have yet to see premature boot failure. The picture near the start of this thread appears to have the boot on backwards. Visual trick? Installation error? The Cap'n

[bondo]

QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ May 13 2005, 04:39 PM)

The picture near the start of this thread appears to have the boot on backwards. Visual trick? Installation error? The Cap'n

I had just undone the boot from the rack and slid it down to the end. It's on there right, it's just disconnected and half inside out.

[mightyohm]

QUOTE (cametal @ May 13 2005, 02:51 PM)

What if you REMOVE the spacers? This would shorten the overall length of the tie rod assembly. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

I am pretty sure that if you remove the spacers you can overextend and destroy the steering rack. Look on PP, there are some photos of the carnage.

[jgiroux67]

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ May 13 2005, 04:30 PM)

QUOTE (cametal @ May 13 2005, 02:51 PM) What if you REMOVE the spacers? This would shorten the overall length of the tie rod assembly. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif) I am pretty sure that if you remove the spacers you can overextend and destroy the steering rack. Look on PP, there are some photos of the carnage.

Does this apply to 911 fronts that have steering arms that are closer to the rack? I've yet to get my turbo tie rods and I would like to know which company to get them from and if I need to use the spacers.

[ChrisFoley]

QUOTE (MarkG @ May 13 2005, 06:35 PM)

when I installed the rack spacers for bump steer I did them wrong: I didn't lossen the steering column lock nut like in the instructions (which would lift UP the rack), since cross member was out I just put the spacers in when I re-installed the cross member, so the rack was NOT moved but cross member WAS....which would shorten the distance from the tie rods to the A-arm by the space of the thickness of the spacers (I think)...which is exactly how much too short the tie rods are.

Huh?
The rack spacers don't significantly affect the length of the tie rods. They merely raise the rack a small amount to alter the geometry between the tie rods and the a-arm.
The crossmember position can't change because of your procedure. The way it bolts in place ensures the position never changes. By not loosening the steering column when installing the rack spacers you are probably causing binding somewhere though.
If your tie rods are too long maybe it's because they aren't screwed in far enough at the rack end.

[Cap'n Krusty]

QUOTE (dmenche914 @ May 13 2005, 03:33 PM)

If some one else installed them, a castle nut does not mean for sure you got the good one, if in the case the shop that installed them pitches the non-stock nyloc, and installs with the correct castle nut and pin.

WHAT!!!! So the shop tosses the nylocs, installs the castellated nut, DRILLS THE STUD, and installs a cotter pin? I'll believe it when I see it. Talk about jacking up the labor! That's a REAL hard stud, and most techs wouldn't have the kind of time or drill bits to kluge it up like that. Lemforder and Ate/TRW have to produce parts that meet TUV standards (and they're TOUGH, believe me!), and so do Porsche and all the other German manufacturers (and anybody else that makes cars or parts that are sold in Germany). Half the bling cr*p you see on the roads here would get your car banned from the roads in Germany. If tie rod ends or ball joints with nylocs weren't up to the job, they'd NEVER be sold in Germany, or installed on any car made in Germany. If they come loose, there's another problem, like they weren't torqued properly, or there are some worn parts. The Cap'n

[Type 4 Unleashed]

QUOTE (MarkG @ May 13 2005, 02:35 PM)

all spacers are installed and correct....EXCEPT: LOOOOONG shot, but I just called the shop and they will check it out: when I installed the rack spacers for bump steer I did them wrong: I didn't lossen the steering column lock nut like in the instructions (which would lift UP the rack), since cross member was out I just put the spacers in when I re-installed the cross member, so the rack was NOT moved but cross member WAS....which would shorten the distance from the tie rods to the A-arm by the space of the thickness of the spacers (I think)...which is exactly how much too short the tie rods are. If this turns out to be the problem my non-OEM kits STILL has crappy boots.....

The spacers that are being refered to, are the tie rod spacers, not the Bump Steer spacers for the rack.

Pic, with the spacers, right below the tie rod:
Wrong Pic.

[Type 4 Unleashed]

Right one:

[TravisNeff]

Need some pics of my shitty ones? 2K miles, 2 alignments and the boots on the rod ends are gone. I agree with the Cap'n about the efforts involved in changing back to a catellated jobbie - but it could just be the nut. Hell we are all nutz, right?

[Dr Evil]

Just to make it clear to all who wander, the big washer things (the spacers) go on the rack between the tie rod and the rack as a spacer there. It does not go between the rack and the car. They are not bump stere parts.

I think that Chris is thinking of the bump kit.

QUOTE

The rack spacers don't significantly affect the length of the tie rods.

They most certainly do, its there job.

QUOTE

They merely raise the rack a small amount to alter the geometry between the tie rods and the a-arm.

Only if you install them as bump stere components. Look at the fist pic. They are installed properly between the rod and rack (gold).


HTH

[Aaron Cox]

yep. big washers in the TTR kit go between the rack and the tie rod. keeps you from over turning the rack (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[ChrisFoley]

QUOTE (Dr Evil @ May 14 2005, 12:45 AM)

I think that Chris is thinking of the bump kit.

I'm not the one with a problem. Read what Mark G. wrote and tell him he's got it all wrong.

The washers that are used with Turbo Tie Rods shouldn't be referred to as "rack spacers" IMO.

[rhodyguy]

a few things YOU should be asked prior to alignment and corner balance. how much do you weigh? what is the primary, intended use of the car? do you plan on needing an auto cross setup, pretty much a street/highway driver, or 50/50? there is a vast dif on how your car is going to handle. do they ask you to bring in a few alignment shims for the rear? were there any shims left over when they were finnished?

you should recieve a print out of the before and after alignment settings. to include the measured ride height, again, before and after. when Redmond Eurpean did mine and al blose's cars it was not a slap-dash affair. about 2 1/2 hours for each car when all was said and done. "close enough" wasn't good enough at that shop. figure what their normal shop rates are and do the math. if $90 an hour is the nominal charge and you pay $50 for the "works" i doubt you are getting correct caster, camber, toe, and weight on all 4 corners. when your shop is done look under the car and observe the relationship of the arms to the horizon. if the tie rod ends are noticeably higher on the outside corners you may have bump steer in your future and the wear on the inside of your front tires may be noticeable rather quickly.

lossening the retaining bolt on the steering shaft assembly (behind the lower dash/knee pad) allows the rack assem to move up relatively easy while installing the bumpsteer kit. i had a set of the rubber bellows go bad when a set of the lemforder sat around waiting to be installed. a RATHER long time though. paragon had a set to replace the ones that went bad. iirc they were around $15 each.


k

[shorty01]

where did you get these ebay? performance p pelican p tweeks?