Paint gurus?, How to fix? Options

[Cracker]

This is well outside of my wheelhouse! I am assuming this is the clear succumbing to the last 5-years of (my ownership) exterior storage and beat by the sun. I've never seen clear literally peel and lift (like this). It is only happening to the top radiused edge but is on all four sides - it is metal. Can this be wet-sanded down and then re-sprayed with clear? What to do and how to do it? Thanks in advance...

Tony

PS: My main concern is not being able to salvage the paint - multiple colors would be a PITA to respray.

[Wdunster]

Hate to see that for you brother. I work for a major autotive paint manufacturer and have been in the industry for 35 years. When the clear starts to delaminate it is due to insufficient film build or lack of UV in the product used and exposure to the elements(sunlight)It will have to be sanded, based and re cleared. You may be able to find a shop that can do a spot repair and then re clear over the remaining area not pealing and attempt to save it. You may eventually find other spots pop up but it is worth a try. Make sure when you have it done they put enough clear and it is a premium clear coat with UV protection.
Sorry for your troubles.

This is well outside of my wheelhouse! I am assuming this is the clear succumbing to the last 5-years of (my ownership) exterior storage and beat by the sun. I've never seen clear literally peel and lift (like this). It is only happening to the top radiused edge but is on all four sides - it is metal. Can this be wet-sanded down and then re-sprayed with clear? What to do and how to do it? Thanks in advance...

Tony

PS: My main concern is not being able to salvage the paint - multiple colors would be a PITA to respray.

[Cracker]

Yowsers! Just to be clear (pun intended!) - you mean that the multi-colored paint will need to be sanded down? I was "hoping" that the remaining clear could be removed, color wet-sanded, and then spray a quality clear. Again, is this not an option from what you can see? Thank you very much!

Tony

[Tom_T]

Tony,

First see if you have any paint &/or shop warranty for that work which might cover the work.

I'm not sure who wdunster works/worked for, but he should be able to give you brands which are quality, as he says.

I've always heard that the best USA brands are PPG & Dupont - if you need to have it redone, as he said. FYI - I've had bad experience with delamination on my BMW with Sherwin-Williams, which IMHO is crap! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Good Luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
///////

[Mike Bellis]

I have the same problem on my truck. I took it to my my friend and life long body shop owner. He said I could wet sand but there is no way to tell if I got through all the clear and if I leave clear on the paint, it will peel again.

He recommend a more aggressive sanding, base and clear coat.

So far I have been power washing the clear off every month or two. The sun is doing a good job of releasing it from the base.

[Cracker]

Ok. I get it (but don't like it)...I can have "whomever I hire" to sand all color down and eliminate the "top color line" as shown below. None of this delamination is taking place below it. It appears the top (flatter section) is what has taken all of the damage. I appreciate the insight and suggestions. Does this sound like a plausible plan?

T

[rhodyguy]

Is the expense worth it or can you live with the clearcoat issue? The fix must be incredible $$$.

[Cracker]

I am sure it will be expensive but I have not spoken to anyone yet - I started here. I also don't want further damage to occur and ignoring it might exacerbate the issue. Lastly, The unit is simply too nice to let it continue to get worse.

Tony

Is the expense worth it or can you live with the clearcoat issue? The fix must be incredible $$$.

[flyer86d]

Clearcoat failure is fairly common on early 90's Mercedes. On a W124 wagon that we had in the shop that had its clear fail like yours on the top surfaces only, I used a single edge razor blade to carefully scrape the clear off. I cleaned it with prepsol and re cleared. Don't laugh, it worked! Clear can be a bear to sand off as it always seems harder than other paints. John Paterak showed me this technique. Oh, slightly dull the new razor blade by "stropping" it a little on your shirt so it doesn't dig into the base as easily.

Charlie

[Cracker]

Thanks guys! I have an idea and will circle back if it pans out...

Tony

[PanelBilly]

You might try sanding the clear down to a smooth finish and applying one of the vinyl protective products

[bbrock]

A few months ago, I noticed a similar spot of failed clear coat on my 91 Nissan Pathfinder from too many years of being stored outside. I haven't tried this yet, but thought the technique in this YouTube video is worth a shot.

[maf914]

A few months ago, I noticed a similar spot of failed clear coat on my 91 Nissan Pathfinder from too many years of being stored outside. I haven't tried this yet, but thought the technique in this YouTube video is worth a shot.

Bbrock, Thanks for posting this link. Pretty good video for a DIY touch-up.

[porschetub]

Tony this is a very common issue in my country due to very high UV count ,the main issue is that you need to feather the edges of the clearcoat ,doing this can still leave an slight edge which will show up when the clear is reapplied,in some cases the solvents in the clear will cause those edges to lift further.
Older metalic basecoats don't take to sanding very well and can look somewhat different when fresh clear is put on top,plain colours are less of an issue.
These kind of paint repairs are very difficult to achieve a good result,then theres the problem of other area's separating later in most cases its only a matter of time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) .

[Wdunster]

Hi all.
Sorry for the delay in responding. I work for PPG. If you sand the clear and get into any of the color it will change it. Especially the metallic colors. I would look for a reputable shop to see if there is any way to try to salvage any of the stripes to minimize the cost. Feel free to PM me and we can discuss in detail to find where you are. I can refer you to one of our territory managers who can help find a shop.
This does stink.
B

[rick 918-S]

The EPA forced safer paint product with less VOC ( Volatile Organic Compounds) This caused many issues from the assembly line to the refinish industry. The manufactures in high production were seeing the delamination of the base coat from the sealer and in some production lines the clear from the base coat.

We saw the beginning of this as early as the 80's when Honda came out with HLSA. (high Tensile Strength Low Alloy Steel) All steel is porous to an extent. The thinner, lighter steel has tightly packed molecules. Conventional lacquer based primer was not hot enough to create a bond to the steel.

To continue with this type of product you would need a 36 grit scratch to lock the product onto the metal. The industry came out with etch primers to solve this problem. Acid etch to the steel and soft dried finish to hold the primers.

Here's the layman's explanation. The VOC's in the Solvents used to mix the color and thin the paint should create enough chemical bond to lock one layer to the other.

In your case the base flashed off hard. Likely, partially from too long of a drying time for the base. It is likely the base should have been lightly scuffed to allow a tooth for the clear. With metallic paint we would use a mid coat adhesion promoter. Kind of like the etch primers but a clear product that would slightly soften the base and allow a chemical bond to take place. The secondary issue is likely the clear coat used was unable the create a chemical bond due to low VOC's.

The Repair? There are a couple ways to do it. Careful soda blasting could remove the loose clear on the upper surfaces. Mask and cover the lower parts that have a good bond and re-clear the affected areas.

Strip it all off and start over.

[Cracker]

B: I sent you a PM this morning...thanks for the offer of assistance.

Rick: Thanks for the explanations...

Porschetub: The vertical surfaces are like new...those flat surfaces just take a beating. Considering its age - it is in remarkable condition - it turned 20 this year.

Tony

Hi all.
Sorry for the delay in responding. I work for PPG. If you sand the clear and get into any of the color it will change it. Especially the metallic colors. I would look for a reputable shop to see if there is any way to try to salvage any of the stripes to minimize the cost. Feel free to PM me and we can discuss in detail to find where you are. I can refer you to one of our territory managers who can help find a shop.
This does stink.
B

[Wdunster]

Great insight but not accurate. Sorry, please don't take offense. I normally don't get too involved with these conversations but this isn't correct. 36 grit sandpaper hasn't been recommended to use on any of the modern metals or especially the metal or fiberglass used on an RV. It will destroy the substrate. Typically on all the delamination issues we have seen over the years (dodge, ford, Chevy, now Honda) is due to the lack of material. When the suns uv Penetrates through the clear with to low of UV protection (either due to cheap clear with out uv protection or too little clear) it will degrade the base color (which is happening here) or the base is even applied too thin and allows the ecoat to degrade and release the base and clear. Manufacturers skimp as do companies that have an RV to paint in order to save material costs. Premium Clears today even with the VOC law changes are leaps and bounds better than they were before the changes. Agreed this isn't an easy fix but with the right person doing it there may be a chance to rescue some of the colors.
B

The EPA forced safer paint product with less VOC ( Volatile Organic Compounds) This caused many issues from the assembly line to the refinish industry. The manufactures in high production were seeing the delamination of the base coat from the sealer and in some production lines the clear from the base coat.

We saw the beginning of this as early as the 80's when Honda came out with HLSA. (high Tensile Strength Low Alloy Steel) All steel is porous to an extent. The thinner, lighter steel has tightly packed molecules. Conventional lacquer based primer was not hot enough to create a bond to the steel.

To continue with this type of product you would need a 36 grit scratch to lock the product onto the metal. The industry came out with etch primers to solve this problem. Acid etch to the steel and soft dried finish to hold the primers.

Here's the layman's explanation. The VOC's in the Solvents used to mix the color and thin the paint should create enough chemical bond to lock one layer to the other.

In your case the base flashed off hard. Likely, partially from too long of a drying time for the base. It is likely the base should have been lightly scuffed to allow a tooth for the clear. With metallic paint we would use a mid coat adhesion promoter. Kind of like the etch primers but a clear product that would slightly soften the base and allow a chemical bond to take place. The secondary issue is likely the clear coat used was unable the create a chemical bond due to low VOC's.

The Repair? There are a couple ways to do it. Careful soda blasting could remove the loose clear on the upper surfaces. Mask and cover the lower parts that have a good bond and re-clear the affected areas.

Strip it all off and start over.

[rick 918-S]

My point was that in order for primitive materials to work on the modern thin HSLA materials you would need to provide a 36 grit scratch in order for the product to ever have a change to bond. Of course this is not possible. Hence the introduction of etch primers. My point was this is a problem with changing products and the EPA regulations.

I started out using DuPont Dulux-Centari-and lacquer based paint in the 70's

I opened my shop in 1979 and sold it off in the early 90's so I was in business during the evolution of materials. We repaired lots of GM delamination issues for a local dealer. My guys used to peel the upper panels with razor blades. The factory sealer stayed in place. The issue was the ability for the low VOC base coat applied at the factory to create a chemical bond before flashing. So I was in business during the time this product line was in development. End user.

The fact is there are many issues that will cause this problem. Could be what I described and what you described in combination.

Great insight but not accurate. Sorry, please don't take offense. I normally don't get too involved with these conversations but this isn't correct. 36 grit sandpaper hasn't been recommended to use on any of the modern metals or especially the metal or fiberglass used on an RV. It will destroy the substrate. Typically on all the delamination issues we have seen over the years (dodge, ford, Chevy, now Honda) is due to the lack of material. When the suns uv Penetrates through the clear with to low of UV protection (either due to cheap clear with out uv protection or too little clear) it will degrade the base color (which is happening here) or the base is even applied too thin and allows the ecoat to degrade and release the base and clear. Manufacturers skimp as do companies that have an RV to paint in order to save material costs. Premium Clears today even with the VOC law changes are leaps and bounds better than they were before the changes. Agreed this isn't an easy fix but with the right person doing it there may be a chance to rescue some of the colors.
B

The EPA forced safer paint product with less VOC ( Volatile Organic Compounds) This caused many issues from the assembly line to the refinish industry. The manufactures in high production were seeing the delamination of the base coat from the sealer and in some production lines the clear from the base coat.

We saw the beginning of this as early as the 80's when Honda came out with HLSA. (high Tensile Strength Low Alloy Steel) All steel is porous to an extent. The thinner, lighter steel has tightly packed molecules. Conventional lacquer based primer was not hot enough to create a bond to the steel.

To continue with this type of product you would need a 36 grit scratch to lock the product onto the metal. The industry came out with etch primers to solve this problem. Acid etch to the steel and soft dried finish to hold the primers.

Here's the layman's explanation. The VOC's in the Solvents used to mix the color and thin the paint should create enough chemical bond to lock one layer to the other.

In your case the base flashed off hard. Likely, partially from too long of a drying time for the base. It is likely the base should have been lightly scuffed to allow a tooth for the clear. With metallic paint we would use a mid coat adhesion promoter. Kind of like the etch primers but a clear product that would slightly soften the base and allow a chemical bond to take place. The secondary issue is likely the clear coat used was unable the create a chemical bond due to low VOC's.

The Repair? There are a couple ways to do it. Careful soda blasting could remove the loose clear on the upper surfaces. Mask and cover the lower parts that have a good bond and re-clear the affected areas.

Strip it all off and start over.

[Rob-O]

My point was that in order for primitive materials to work on the modern thin HSLA materials you would need to provide a 36 grit scratch in order for the product to ever have a change to bond. Of course this is not possible. Hence the introduction of etch primers. My point was this is a problem with changing products and the EPA regulations.

I started out using DuPont Dulux-Centari-and lacquer based paint in the 70's

I opened my shop in 1979 and sold it off in the early 90's so I was in business during the evolution of materials. We repaired lots of GM delamination issues for a local dealer. My guys used to peel the upper panels with razor blades. The factory sealer stayed in place. The issue was the ability for the low VOC base coat applied at the factory to create a chemical bond before flashing. So I was in business during the time this product line was in development. End user.

The fact is there are many issues that will cause this problem. Could be what I described and what you described in combination.

Great insight but not accurate. Sorry, please don't take offense. I normally don't get too involved with these conversations but this isn't correct. 36 grit sandpaper hasn't been recommended to use on any of the modern metals or especially the metal or fiberglass used on an RV. It will destroy the substrate. Typically on all the delamination issues we have seen over the years (dodge, ford, Chevy, now Honda) is due to the lack of material. When the suns uv Penetrates through the clear with to low of UV protection (either due to cheap clear with out uv protection or too little clear) it will degrade the base color (which is happening here) or the base is even applied too thin and allows the ecoat to degrade and release the base and clear. Manufacturers skimp as do companies that have an RV to paint in order to save material costs. Premium Clears today even with the VOC law changes are leaps and bounds better than they were before the changes. Agreed this isn't an easy fix but with the right person doing it there may be a chance to rescue some of the colors.
B

The EPA forced safer paint product with less VOC ( Volatile Organic Compounds) This caused many issues from the assembly line to the refinish industry. The manufactures in high production were seeing the delamination of the base coat from the sealer and in some production lines the clear from the base coat.

We saw the beginning of this as early as the 80's when Honda came out with HLSA. (high Tensile Strength Low Alloy Steel) All steel is porous to an extent. The thinner, lighter steel has tightly packed molecules. Conventional lacquer based primer was not hot enough to create a bond to the steel.

To continue with this type of product you would need a 36 grit scratch to lock the product onto the metal. The industry came out with etch primers to solve this problem. Acid etch to the steel and soft dried finish to hold the primers.

Here's the layman's explanation. The VOC's in the Solvents used to mix the color and thin the paint should create enough chemical bond to lock one layer to the other.

In your case the base flashed off hard. Likely, partially from too long of a drying time for the base. It is likely the base should have been lightly scuffed to allow a tooth for the clear. With metallic paint we would use a mid coat adhesion promoter. Kind of like the etch primers but a clear product that would slightly soften the base and allow a chemical bond to take place. The secondary issue is likely the clear coat used was unable the create a chemical bond due to low VOC's.

The Repair? There are a couple ways to do it. Careful soda blasting could remove the loose clear on the upper surfaces. Mask and cover the lower parts that have a good bond and re-clear the affected areas.

Strip it all off and start over.

I was in the industry back in the 80's to mid 2000's (BASF and then a TPO substrate supplier where I tested all OEM paints on various materials, including our own). While you've both got valid points, Wdunster's explanation fits here. The reason those cars in the 80's were delaminating was because the OEM's were chintzing out on the basecoat film builds, allowing UV light to penetrate to the primer layer and degrade that product. Nowadays (even 20 years ago like this RV, OEM paints were very good. But 20 years is a long time for a paint to survive on a horizontal panel, even if the clear was applied in a timely manner over the base and with the correct film build. Most aftermarket paints don't have the same UV package as the OEM supplied paint (UV stabilizers are expensive!). So you've got all these possibilities here. The base could've been left too long before clear was applied (no clear biting into the basecoat), the clear was applied too thin (not the correct film build), the possibility that this was an lower quality paint that didn't have a great UV package and it's 20 years old.

Even the best UV packages have a finite lifespan. You might be able to have someone repair that, but I've never seen it done. But there's bound to be a great paint guy out there that can pull it off and make it look acceptable. Trouble is finding that guy...