AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE TUNA CAN, Or At Least What I Did Options

[Type 4 Unleashed]

I, yanked my motor yestergay, tore it down to the case, I was doing a rering and head swap, well today, I couldn't help my self, I split the case, figured what the heck, and I remembered talk on here about tuna cans. I tried one once, didn't like it.

These baffles, help keep the oil from rushing from side to side during hard corning, they actually, direct oil to the pickup, I leave about an 1/4" space on the bottom and ends, to allow the oil level to equalize in the sump, when the motor is off to get an accurate dip shit reading.

I have no pressure lose, during hard corning(i.e. green light when you go around a corner really fast).

Just thought I'd share this, and to see what opinions are provoked.

[McMark]

Seems like a good idea! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)

[Steve Thacker]

I think that is a very good idea also. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)

You ought to make and market those.

Our VW cabriolets have similar plastic baffles that snap onto the oil pump pickup tube, to stop/correct the same thing. They could stand to be larger like your solution, as I still once in a while get a redlight in the dash.

[Mark Henry]

BTDT it's old news, first time I saw it was in Hot VW's late 80's/early 90's in a FAT engine build-up article.

Tighten up the gaps and punch a few holes in the stock windage tray.

[redshift]

Could someone that knows, please draw a line on that picture, that represents how deep the oil is in an engine at speed.. I mean like 4500-5500..

Please?



M

[machina]

QUOTE (redshift @ May 19 2005, 07:09 AM)

Could someone that knows, please draw a line on that picture, that represents how deep the oil is in an engine at speed.. I mean like 4500-5500..

I don't know alot but at higher rpm's, the oil has a hard time evacuating from the heads. The picture is a TI but its the same idea.

The holes in the stock baffle help to get the oil back to the pickup faster.

I had to go to a deep sump with an accusump accumulator, the other stuff just didn't cut it.

[machina]

the pic..........

[redshift]

Thanks for that! I imagined the heads would hold onto it some.. but whoa... so, correct me if I am thinking wrong... from the looks of it, and imagining the stuff in transition... meaning what we can't see there, and what hasn't pooled back in the case..

... there is only about a 1/2 qt down there?

I hate that green light. Green means stop.


M

[914werke]

Good thread!
Since oiling is the lifeblood of an engine any improvements in evan stock motors are "good to know"
So is the general consensus is that ALL T4 windage trays should have such holes drilled?
SOT are the seals (green) still available for the that windage tray?

[redshift]

Accusump... it's just expensive sense.


M

[airsix]

Whoah! That's a pretty high tide there. This is a concern to me now. Based on that picture, my turbo oil return is submerged at high rpm. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif) Mueller, you looking at this?

-Ben M.

[Mueller]

QUOTE (airsix @ May 19 2005, 09:57 AM)

Whoah! That's a pretty high tide there. This is a concern to me now. Based on that picture, my turbo oil return is submerged at high rpm. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif) Mueller, you looking at this? -Ben M.

I was going to put the turbo oil return on the top......looking at the pictures, I wonder how effective it would be to "help" the oil escape by adding lines to the bottom of the head or valve cover???

[messix]

wouldnt' that extra oil in the head at high rpm be keeping the heads cool.

correct me here if i'm wrong but i thought that these engines were air and oil cooled.

[machina]

after about two hours of track time, I have roughly 1/2 qt of oil in my puke can. It is manageable but I don't like it. And my vents are tapped at the top of the head at the standard location.

And the accusump is nice primarily for oiling before startup. The truth is that at a sustained high rpm, the sump can only supply pressurized oil for a few seconds, even if you have the 3 qt. Imagine how much oil the motor pumps at that speed, alot with a melling or even a stock unit.

[machina]

QUOTE (messix @ May 19 2005, 12:11 PM)

wouldnt' that extra oil in the head at high rpm be keeping the heads cool. correct me here if i'm wrong but i thought that these engines were air and oil cooled.

Not really, and then all the oil is in the heads and that is why, or at least contributes to the oil starvation since there is much less oil at the pickup in the case.

[Brad Roberts]

Great thread (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

The tuna can was never a "great" idea, it just works for the average AutoX/Track guy. Now we know why 911 engines are 90% dry sump.


B

[Reiche]

QUOTE (messix @ May 19 2005, 10:11 AM)

wouldnt' that extra oil in the head at high rpm be keeping the heads cool. correct me here if i'm wrong but i thought that these engines were air and oil cooled.

The bottom end is cooled by oil, but it has to circulate a lot to do much cooling. The oil doesn't circulate in and out of the heads fast enough to do much cooling compared to the air that is passing through the fins.

Even if you have oil squirters to cool the back of the pistons, they are doing less for piston cooling than the cylinder walls are.

[Jake Raby]

I actually sell those pieces already waterjet cut ready to be welded to the pick up tube... Its nothing new..

It will not serve the same purpose as a Tuna Can.

Most oil starvation issues are compounded by incorrect install of the oil pick up tube O ring, or an O ring that is aged and has turned hard, thus allowing air to be picked up in the tube when windage decreases the amount of oil submerging the tube...

The best fix I have found is some preventive measures coupled with the 1 quart deep sump, I sometimes even modify the sumps for even more efficiency by narrowing them and welding them back together.

BTW- The engine is not oil cooled any more than any other, your heads are not submerged in oil are they?? Proper lubrication decreases friction, which decreases heat being generated- think about it..

Cooling the oil, don't cool the heads- not even a tad bit.

A stock, non modified Windage tray can easily create oil starvation issues, that would not be there otherwise... Getting oil back into the sump from the heads is a huge key and the tray slows that drastically...The more RPM you have the worse it is.

We actually limit the oil that gets into the valve covers on race engines by welding the tips of the pushrods thus lightening them even further and this also lessens the oil in the valve covers.... Then an external oil delivery system is created that we can adjust the oil flow delivered to the valve covers with jetting changes to the orfices (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/boldblue.gif)

[lapuwali]

synth, are those two head pics low and high rpm, or before and after with and without the extra holes in the baffles?

[914werke]

BTW- The engine is not oil cooled any more than any other, your heads are not submerged in oil are they?? Proper lubrication decreases friction, which decreases heat being generated- think about it..

I dont necessarily agree with that statement, perhaps with the T4 design but if you take for instance the early MC GSXR mill for example at 3/4 ltr. it DOES creatively use oil to cool the head in conjunction with Finning and produces
(in my case) 132HP.

So Jake you didnt directly answer the question:in other that full race applications does the application of holes in the WT and baffles you mention benefit oil in sump retention? Im of the belief Deep sumps are not universally embraced on the street because of their potential for bottoming <!-- emo&:smash: -->(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif)<!-- endemo -->