DTM Cooling or 911 type?, any improvement? Options

[RFoulds]

Since I live in the desert, and I am keeping the a/c for my latest project, I am researching Raby's DTM (down the middle) cooling and FAT Performance's 911 type fan conversion and shroud. The car is already dual carbs so I dont have to worry about clearance over the FI intake tubes.
But, I will also be running a small compressor for the a/c.

Initial search tells me the 911 style looks great but doesnt cool any better, and the fit is questionable.

DTM should be better cooling, and reviews of the kit for Type 1 or type IV converted Beetles is really good.

anyone ever do one of these options in a 914??

[mb911]

I have nothing to add as have zero knowledge. The dtm looks cool but wow pretty expensive at 2k?? Maybe not everything is needed.. Though a 911 set must sell for similar money. Wouldn't an oil cooler be less expensive and contribute to better heat control?

[GeorgeRud]

No personal experience, but Jake Raby generally does impressive work. A 911 type of cooling setup is not as convenient in a midengined application as it is in a 911 rear engine orientation. Do either work better than the original type 4 layout? AC compressors can be added to either I would imagine, and an electric compressor is being developed by some enterprising folks that may work well.

[veltror]

try this


http://www.typ4shop.de/product_info.php?in...4-Geblaese.html

[jd74914]

The Tangerine Racing horizontal fan is pretty cool too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

http://www.tangerineracing.com/horizontalcooling.htm

[mb911]

Tangerines looks very nice..

[hcdmueller]

Living in Phoenix, I can say that head temps don't seem to go up until the ambient temps go over 110F. Oil temps are a different story. I need an external cooler bad. I just stopped driving the 914 when it's really hot. This is all contingent on the engine being tuned correctly. If the timing is even a little out, drivability or head temps really suffer. I'm running d-jet though. Carbs will change things.

I'll have my early bay double cab up and running with a type4 and DTM in a couple weeks. I'll try and remember to update this thread with the DTM performance. I've run this exact motor in standard cooling configuration in another bay. I should have some good numbers.

[Mark Henry]

I've used a bunch and I made my shroud for my '67 bug, which is a custom made all steel DTM/Joe Cali hybrid.

For the 914 it's a custom made DTM with no cooler outlet, as this outlet interferes with the engine lid. You then have to plumb an external cooler, not included.
I don't know if these are still being sold, as the stock cooling system is still the best choice for most apps.

The 911 fan, you have to be careful as some like the FAT set up is also too tall for the 914 engine bay. They didn't cool overly well because they push too much air and the shroud doesn't fit tight enough to the fins, the air is pushed over the engine instead of being rammed through the fins. Also like the 914 DTM there's no provision for the oil cooler, so you have to run a external oil cooler set-up, again not included.
If you could find a Sharpbuilt T4, 911 fan shroud that would likely be a better solution as it has accommodations for the stock oil cooler.

[ChrisFoley]

The Tangerine Racing horizontal fan is pretty cool too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

http://www.tangerineracing.com/horizontalcooling.htm

I'm putting one together to go into a T4 powered Huffaker Genie right now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[r_towle]

Didn't someone do a test on the available kits , years ago?
I know jake did his testing and marketing, but I recall a more neutral test done??

[Jake Raby]

You don't really need a DTM.. Yes, I re- invented the DTM in 2003 and have used them on hundreds of my engines.. BUT the vast majority of these are conversion applications like 356, and 912... Those cars require an upright cooling system to keep the body from being altered.

If you are making less than 45 HP per cylinder, and have iron cylinders, the DTM in a 914 doesn't make sense. I used them on less than 1% of my 914 engines.

Now that everything I build gets Nickies cylinders, I still use stock cooling at 55HP per cylinder.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Sep 13 2017, 08:59 PM

[eitnurg]

I've used a bunch and I made my shroud for my '67 bug, which is a custom made all steel DTM/Joe Cali hybrid.

Anyone know if Joe Cali is still around? Apparently he did a manual for Type 4 conversions which is highly recommended, but his website just goes to blankness.

[Mark Henry]

I've used a bunch and I made my shroud for my '67 bug, which is a custom made all steel DTM/Joe Cali hybrid.

Anyone know if Joe Cali is still around? Apparently he did a manual for Type 4 conversions which is highly recommended, but his website just goes to blankness.

If you have the time, like over the winter, you can figure out a Joe Cali conversion yourself with a bit of research on the STF and thesamba. For the most part it's getting 2 sets of cylinder tins, cutting, fitting and welding them into type 1 looking cylinder tins and mating up to the T1 fan shroud.
The pulley is available and if you have the fab skills the generator stand isn't that hard to make. My Bug the trans is a 911-901 so it was just a 914fly/clutch, for a bug you can mod the bus 210 or 215mm flywheel.

If you posted the project here in the garage I'd give you all kinds of help.

[DBCooper]

Wow, Joe lives on. Very cool. I guess there are some low-profile T1 shrouds, like the brasilian VW Gol, but would any north american version be short enough to fit into a 914? Check that carefully before you get too far down that path.

This thread was totally worth it for the Joe Cali mention. Thanks.

[Mark Henry]

Wow, Joe lives on. Very cool. I guess there are some low-profile T1 shrouds, like the brasilian VW Gol, but would any north american version be short enough to fit into a 914? Check that carefully before you get too far down that path.

This thread was totally worth it for the Joe Cali mention. Thanks.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
The standard DTM doesn't fit because of the cooler air outlet on top of the shroud, even the low profile T1 fan shroud may be damn close to the lid.
For sure you would lose the rain tray.

The DTM and Cali were made to put the T4 engine into a beetle, bus and kitcars, no thought was given for a 914 app.
The later mod to the DTM for the 914 was geared more towards the racer.

Below is a pic of my 1967 T4 conversion bug engine with my custom made hybrid DTM/Cali/VW fan shroud.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-26-1403266589.jpg)

[r_towle]

I remember when jake shared some of his data the internal routing of air with routing fins made a very big difference in how balanced the cooling was, and many of the 911 shrouds either don't have those fins inside, or they are not in the optimum place.

For cooling in the desert heat, along with the extra heat from the AC, you are asking the right questions. I would suggest that these motors like oil coolers

[DBCooper]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
The standard DTM doesn't fit because of the cooler air outlet on top of the shroud, even the low profile T1 fan shroud may be damn close to the lid.
For sure you would lose the rain tray.

The DTM and Cali were made to put the T4 engine into a beetle, bus and kitcars, no thought was given for a 914 app.
The later mod to the DTM for the 914 was geared more towards the racer.

Below is a pic of my 1967 T4 conversion bug engine with my custom made hybrid DTM/Cali/VW fan shroud.

Those are the coolest things at a VW car. You walk along rows of VW's and they're all mostly the same, some with webers or dellortos, some progressives, some with chrome fan shrouds, aluminum, small variations but all pretty much the same. And then you come to that one. It's all kind of the same, but it's not. Something strange, not right, and it stops people in their tracks. You can almost see their brains grinding away, trying to make some kind of sense of it. No big deal or anything, it's just fun.

My son had 911 cooling on a hotted up 2.0 T4 in a Ghia. Obviously your experience might vary, but his cooled fine, even on long stretches of I-10 through the desert.

[RFoulds]

You don't really need a DTM.. Yes, I re- invented the DTM in 2003 and have used them on hundreds of my engines.. BUT the vast majority of these are conversion applications like 356, and 912... Those cars require an upright cooling system to keep the body from being altered.

If you are making less than 45 HP per cylinder, and have iron cylinders, the DTM in a 914 doesn't make sense. I used them on less than 1% of my 914 engines.

Now that everything I build gets Nickies cylinders, I still use stock cooling at 55HP per cylinder.

Thanks Jake. good to know

[RFoulds]

Thanks everyone. I think its down to the Tangerine horizontal fan, or go with an oil cooler then. Since I am removing the evap canister in front, I can run hoses on the driver side, but not sure the cooler will have room up front with the AC condensor up there.