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> V8 cooling ideas., Only because I have the parts!
BRAVE_HELIOS
post Sep 18 2017, 05:06 PM
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I think I have pretty much exhausted the ways to make a mechanical Chrysler/Renegade water pump setup run as efficiently as possible.

At this time; I do notice that at idle, the engine temp creeps up but as soon as I give it throttle; the temp comes down by almost 10 degrees... it stands the reason since at higher rpm's, there is more water flow.

Now for the ideas... I have a spare aux electric water pump from my 545i. BMW uses the pump to assist in pumping coolant to the heater core. It is a small unit and I am sure the flow is low compared to the standard electric or mechanical water pump. Could I integrate this lil ol electric unit to flow a more consistent rate, even at idle? Would it interrupt the flow from the mechanical w/p?

The other item is the oil cooler that came with the engine but I have yet to install. Would this help cool the engine down and by how much?

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HalfMoon
post Sep 18 2017, 05:50 PM
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QUOTE(BRAVE_HELIOS @ Sep 18 2017, 07:06 PM) *

I think I have pretty much exhausted the ways to make a mechanical Chrysler/Renegade water pump setup run as efficiently as possible.

At this time; I do notice that at idle, the engine temp creeps up but as soon as I give it throttle; the temp comes down by almost 10 degrees... it stands the reason since at higher rpm's, there is more water flow.

Now for the ideas... I have a spare aux electric water pump from my 545i. BMW uses the pump to assist in pumping coolant to the heater core. It is a small unit and I am sure the flow is low compared to the standard electric or mechanical water pump. Could I integrate this lil ol electric unit to flow a more consistent rate, even at idle? Would it interrupt the flow from the mechanical w/p?

The other item is the oil cooler that came with the engine but I have yet to install. Would this help cool the engine down and by how much?


I'm sure you've already thought of this and or attended to it, but mine was doing the exact same thing and I came to find out I had air in my system.
It would impede flow to a point where sometimes the sensor wouldn't take an accurate read and kick on the fans. But if I bliped the throttle the temps would come down and almost immediately after, the fans would come on. I was perplexed. Actually it was Renegade themselves who advised me about the possible air problem. I installed a bleeder valve at the top part of the radiator (there was a bung mounted up there-presumably for a heat line). It took forever to really get the air totally out of the system, but I have never had either problem since. I never go over 200 now and the fans kick in exactly at 190.
Addendum-And at idle since the fans come on right at 190, my idle temp rarely goes past 192-3
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DM_2000
post Sep 18 2017, 06:03 PM
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What specifically are you using for an engine and cooling system?

For the aux pump to work would require a check valve in one of the rad hoses then place the pump across this check valve. If a check valve isn't used, the pump would just recirculate water.

Another possibility would be to plumb the pump in like a heater core application then hang a heater core under the rear of the car.

An oil to air cooler will reduce engine temps overall as oil is always hotter than coolant. An oil to coolant cooler reduces oil temp at the expense of increasing coolant temps if the radiator is marginal.

What is your charging system voltage? If low, bringing the engine RPM up would increase voltage and make the electric fan spin faster.

Some cars ( 2000 era Jeep / Toyota ? ) used a hydraulic rad fan driven off the power steering pump. I'd be tempted to use something like this as I'd think power losses would be less.
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Andyrew
post Sep 18 2017, 09:29 PM
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I would certainly entertain a oil cooler at this point.

As I have said before, I think an electric pump would really do the job here. I still suggest the Davies Craig model I told you about a year ago.
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BRAVE_HELIOS
post Sep 19 2017, 12:11 PM
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QUOTE(Andyrew @ Sep 18 2017, 09:29 PM) *

I would certainly entertain a oil cooler at this point.

As I have said before, I think an electric pump would really do the job here. I still suggest the Davies Craig model I told you about a year ago.



I am aware of your (and others) recommendations but when you have a spouse that is so wanting for me to sell the car; it's hard to spend any money on the thing at all!

These are items I already have around the garage and would be easy enough to install.
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BRAVE_HELIOS
post Sep 19 2017, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE(DM_2000 @ Sep 18 2017, 06:03 PM) *

What specifically are you using for an engine and cooling system?

For the aux pump to work would require a check valve in one of the rad hoses then place the pump across this check valve. If a check valve isn't used, the pump would just recirculate water.

Another possibility would be to plumb the pump in like a heater core application then hang a heater core under the rear of the car.

An oil to air cooler will reduce engine temps overall as oil is always hotter than coolant. An oil to coolant cooler reduces oil temp at the expense of increasing coolant temps if the radiator is marginal.

What is your charging system voltage? If low, bringing the engine RPM up would increase voltage and make the electric fan spin faster.

Some cars ( 2000 era Jeep / Toyota ? ) used a hydraulic rad fan driven off the power steering pump. I'd be tempted to use something like this as I'd think power losses would be less.


Perhaps you can sketch out the check valve setup? I cannot quite picture it.

I do not think I would go the heater core route.

The oil cooler I have is an oil to air cooler. That might be the next step to try.

RPM does drop when the electric fan (from an early 90's Taurus) comes on. I can probably bump up the idle a bit to compensate. Voltage drops from around 14 to around < 13.

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Andyrew
post Sep 19 2017, 12:32 PM
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The oil cooler will help for sure. Start with that.
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Mike1981
post Sep 19 2017, 01:57 PM
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Hello

I am no expert but I have owbed 2 V8 conversions.

the 1st has a Mopar water pump

I tried to get the air out but felt it never was able to adequately cool the engine especially in the summer the engine overheated on me once.

The one I have now has an electric water pump

Cool as a cucumber even driving it 13 hours straight.

Hope this helps

MIke
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burton73
post Sep 19 2017, 02:19 PM
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Tony,

I do not know how long you have been married but as an old married man let me say that I think you should tell your spouse that when you sell your car you need it to run right and not overheat. So, this investment in the car will make it so you can get more for the sorted out car when you sell it. Or say this will make it possible to sell it.

Not that you want to but if you need to you can.

Tell your spouse that everything is for sale except them. They like that!

Bob B
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
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DM_2000
post Sep 19 2017, 07:07 PM
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Here is a pic of the aux pump across the upper rad hose, I could be tempted to place this on the lower hose. This is a bit of a last resort hack and would need testing. What temps are you actually getting?

Your charging system is dropping off too much, prop that up and the cooling issue may go away.

If you have a largeish battery charger, hook that up while at idle , don't rev the engine and see if temps drop. ( The fan will be running faster but water flow will be the same. )

I'm also wondering if the temp gauge is responding to a higher voltage and making it look like the temps are dropping.

Is you fan a push or pull? Does the fan move air across the entire rad? A push fan that is too close to the rad will have a dead air flow spot at the center of fan and will reduce cooling.


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cali914
post Sep 19 2017, 09:38 PM
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ron Davis radiator with 2 spal fans that is what keeps it cool i tried 5 different pumps and 5 different radiators after shelling out the bucks for the Renegade radiator and fans which is really ron davis dual pass all aluminum and two big fans my v8 small block 427 stayed between 180 and 205 all day long. Oh i was using the Meziere 55gpm electric water pump located at the bottom of the radiator.
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BRAVE_HELIOS
post Sep 20 2017, 08:19 AM
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QUOTE(burton73 @ Sep 19 2017, 02:19 PM) *

Tony,

I do not know how long you have been married but as an old married man let me say that I think you should tell your spouse that when you sell your car you need it to run right and not overheat. So, this investment in the car will make it so you can get more for the sorted out car when you sell it. Or say this will make it possible to sell it.

Not that you want to but if you need to you can.

Tell your spouse that everything is for sale except them. They like that!

Bob B
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)


Twenty four and half years of marital bliss? Er, I mean marital bliss! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I like your point of view and will relay that to the Mrs. This will be a good winter project!
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BRAVE_HELIOS
post Sep 20 2017, 08:38 AM
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QUOTE(cali914 @ Sep 19 2017, 09:38 PM) *

ron Davis radiator with 2 spal fans that is what keeps it cool i tried 5 different pumps and 5 different radiators after shelling out the bucks for the Renegade radiator and fans which is really ron davis dual pass all aluminum and two big fans my v8 small block 427 stayed between 180 and 205 all day long. Oh i was using the Meziere 55gpm electric water pump located at the bottom of the radiator.



Is your radiator a 2-core, dual pass unit?

If you pump was located at the bottom of the radiator, does that mean it was pushing coolant from that location to the engine (lines out of lower rad to water pump then out of water pump to engine block)?
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mgp4591
post Sep 20 2017, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE(BRAVE_HELIOS @ Sep 20 2017, 08:19 AM) *

QUOTE(burton73 @ Sep 19 2017, 02:19 PM) *

Tony,

I do not know how long you have been married but as an old married man let me say that I think you should tell your spouse that when you sell your car you need it to run right and not overheat. So, this investment in the car will make it so you can get more for the sorted out car when you sell it. Or say this will make it possible to sell it.

Not that you want to but if you need to you can.

Tell your spouse that everything is for sale except them. They like that!

Bob B
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)


Twenty four and half years of marital bliss? Er, I mean marital bliss! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I like your point of view and will relay that to the Mrs. This will be a good winter project!

Does she like riding in the car at all? I know the ID winters are rough and long (that's what SHE said...) but if she likes cruising through the canyons and such with the roof off in the summer, press the point that proper cooling will mean less headaches in the long run while she gets to enjoy longer rides with the love of her life - who would happily sell the car if she absolutely insisted! Or whatever... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)
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cali914
post Sep 20 2017, 06:18 PM
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QUOTE(BRAVE_HELIOS @ Sep 20 2017, 07:38 AM) *

QUOTE(cali914 @ Sep 19 2017, 09:38 PM) *

ron Davis radiator with 2 spal fans that is what keeps it cool i tried 5 different pumps and 5 different radiators after shelling out the bucks for the Renegade radiator and fans which is really ron davis dual pass all aluminum and two big fans my v8 small block 427 stayed between 180 and 205 all day long. Oh i was using the Meziere 55gpm electric water pump located at the bottom of the radiator.



Is your radiator a 2-core, dual pass unit?

If you pump was located at the bottom of the radiator, does that mean it was pushing coolant from that location to the engine (lines out of lower rad to water pump then out of water pump to engine block)?

Yes it was pushing but i figured if it was at the lowest point in the system it could never starve for water. If you fill the system from the highest point and you have a good reservoir it will self bleed itself as it contracts and expands pushing air out and sucking water back from overflow tank.
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cali914
post Sep 20 2017, 06:20 PM
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I am using same radiator in my v6 honda 914 as i did with the v8 only difference is i am using honda stock water pump 180 degree all day long.
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BRAVE_HELIOS
post Sep 21 2017, 08:36 AM
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QUOTE(cali914 @ Sep 20 2017, 06:20 PM) *

I am using same radiator in my v6 honda 914 as i did with the v8 only difference is i am using honda stock water pump 180 degree all day long.


Would love to see pictures of this!

You have the same dual pass rad?

Does this make that much of a difference compared to a single pass, 2 row all aluminium radiator?

Which is better to change first my wp to electric or my rad to a dual pass unit?
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BRAVE_HELIOS
post Sep 21 2017, 08:40 AM
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QUOTE(cali914 @ Sep 20 2017, 06:18 PM) *

QUOTE(BRAVE_HELIOS @ Sep 20 2017, 07:38 AM) *

QUOTE(cali914 @ Sep 19 2017, 09:38 PM) *

ron Davis radiator with 2 spal fans that is what keeps it cool i tried 5 different pumps and 5 different radiators after shelling out the bucks for the Renegade radiator and fans which is really ron davis dual pass all aluminum and two big fans my v8 small block 427 stayed between 180 and 205 all day long. Oh i was using the Meziere 55gpm electric water pump located at the bottom of the radiator.



Is your radiator a 2-core, dual pass unit?

If you pump was located at the bottom of the radiator, does that mean it was pushing coolant from that location to the engine (lines out of lower rad to water pump then out of water pump to engine block)?

Yes it was pushing but i figured if it was at the lowest point in the system it could never starve for water. If you fill the system from the highest point and you have a good reservoir it will self bleed itself as it contracts and expands pushing air out and sucking water back from overflow tank.



I was not sure if there is a preferred placement... front or rear, bottom or top of the car.

I am looking at the Jegs 50 gpm unit that is designed to fit in a stock BB Mopar w/p enclosure/case which therefore; theoretically should fit in the Renegade w/p enclosure; perhaps with a bit of modifying.
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914GT
post Sep 21 2017, 08:52 AM
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Best location for a remote electric water pump is as low in the system as possible, and where the coolant is forced into the pump inlet during acceleration rather than away from it. So in a 914 the preferred location would be below the engine, although it'll probably work fine below the radiator.
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BRAVE_HELIOS
post Sep 21 2017, 11:28 AM
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QUOTE(BRAVE_HELIOS @ Sep 21 2017, 08:40 AM) *

QUOTE(cali914 @ Sep 20 2017, 06:18 PM) *

QUOTE(BRAVE_HELIOS @ Sep 20 2017, 07:38 AM) *

QUOTE(cali914 @ Sep 19 2017, 09:38 PM) *

ron Davis radiator with 2 spal fans that is what keeps it cool i tried 5 different pumps and 5 different radiators after shelling out the bucks for the Renegade radiator and fans which is really ron davis dual pass all aluminum and two big fans my v8 small block 427 stayed between 180 and 205 all day long. Oh i was using the Meziere 55gpm electric water pump located at the bottom of the radiator.



Is your radiator a 2-core, dual pass unit?

If you pump was located at the bottom of the radiator, does that mean it was pushing coolant from that location to the engine (lines out of lower rad to water pump then out of water pump to engine block)?

Yes it was pushing but i figured if it was at the lowest point in the system it could never starve for water. If you fill the system from the highest point and you have a good reservoir it will self bleed itself as it contracts and expands pushing air out and sucking water back from overflow tank.



I was not sure if there is a preferred placement... front or rear, bottom or top of the car.

I am looking at the Jegs 50 gpm unit that is designed to fit in a stock BB Mopar w/p enclosure/case which therefore; theoretically should fit in the Renegade w/p enclosure; perhaps with a bit of modifying.


It's funny; the more I read about 914 water cooling but more so; just general water cooling, the more confusing it gets!

Don't mean to 'beat a dead horse' but I saw an article about water pump pulley sizes being critical to the flow characteristics of a cooling system. One to 1 is good (wp pulley size the same diameter as the crankshaft pulley diameter) but perhaps undersizing would allow more coolant to flow but with the possible adverse affect of allowing the coolant to flow too quickly and not allowing enough time for correct heat transfer to occur. Confusing!!
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