SCCA Rules, Any gurus out there who have read them? Options

[cnavarro]

Hey Guys,

There have been some questions asked about substitution of Nickies in place of factory cylinders, both cast iron and mahle nikasils, and I'm just curious how sticktly the rules are read into- is it just that the cylinders must be to the specifications of the factory pieces (since JE's are already used in E and F prod) or do the actual factory pieces have to be retained? Can it be argued that if other aftermarket cylinders are used (Chinese, Brazilian, Mexican), can't Nickies also be used, since it isn't actually factory cylinders being used- just cylinders made to resemble and to the specifications of the original pieces? I appreciate the input guys, it would be nice to have a definative answer on this one for numerous guys out there with Nickies and those considering Nickies for their 911 or 914.

[bam914]

I just read the rules and it is not clear on air cooled cars. It basically talks about resleeving cylinders is permited for repair only. I would call SCCA for a clarification.

Blake

[Jake Raby]

I really wish that SCCA was not so hard to deal with when it comes to definitive rules.. The engines I have built for the offroad guys and other racing sanctions say part for part what we can and cannot use but SCCA is so broad almost like they want you to run the questionable part, stand on the podium and then impound your ass and shut you down and give the trophy to some whiner....

Does anyone happen to know some higher ups at SCCA??

The British cars and other watercooleds can run aluminum radiators, so why can't we run an aluminum cylinder?? each of those two parts changes heat transfer capabilities of the engine.

[Joe Ricard]

Never mentions material of cylinders. However if someone EVEN believes you have a 1 hp over them because of your cylinders being Aluminum then you get protested. You will lose and have to pay the cost of inspection. So welcome to Street modified or what ever the club racing class is . Someone has dyno numbers here to prove you make more power with Nikkies.... Hmm Jake? Thats about all it takes to win a protest.

Had to put a carpet kit back in my car to make it SM-2 legal. Covered up my sexy epoxied floors. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

Not familiar with E and F production club racing but I thought they are pretty hot classes.

[Jake Raby]

Well, no one has been protested yet, but there are many competitors with less power than we have generated that very well could say something and I'm sure it would be from pure jealousy (many of those engines have been built by others that have more notorious names in SCCA and that makes it worse too)... Every since Chris' engine made 186 ponies things have gotten very interesting....... Plenty of people have either thought it was a lie or that it had to be illegal- Not true, I had those controls in my hands and the power was true.

I want to get this squared away before I start on 3 Run Offs engines very soon because I refuse to lose a podium finish to some stupid damn rule book that is too vague, especially from some whiner that would wait for someone to qualify (at the run offs) to complain.

I really don't have the patience for these people and their rules and their lack of clarification until they "have to" make a ruling, it seems pretty dumb to have rules and not be open with their interpretation to anyone working with an engine that may be "grey"...

This may well be the last season I work with these classes, I simply do not have the time or desire to try to read between lines and talk to people that can't give me answers until race day- if they make rules someone should have a full time friggin job to answer questions asked- PERIOD!.

One of the main reasons I wanted to do these types of engines was to put to work the modern developments for these engines and if we can't do that within the bounds of the rule book I am not gaining anything by building the engines, winning is not my main goal believe it or not, but gathering data useful for other demanding applications is.

[Thorshammer]

Charles,

I will try to shed some light on this, but some think it IS a grey area. Although there is a bigger factor here. SOME 914 competitors feel it is better to fight with each other than to fight with the other marques. This is BULLSHIT and I welcome the first Asshole that throws a protest my way for anything, because no one is completely on the up and up. Even the two guys that claim to know the rules, neither one of their cars (and others) are legal. Something in the rules is being broken. Or bent or better yet exploited by the letter of the GCR/PCS. So here goes.

-914's and 914-6 only came with cast iron cylinders we all know that.

The PCS says:

17.1.1.D.1.a.1 Component Modification:

Original and alternate components of the engine may be lightened, balanced, and modified by any mechanical or chemical means, provided it is always possible to identify required components as original. Such means include, but are not limited to, shot peening, glass beading,heat treatment or hardening, plating and milling or otherwise tooling.

Which means you can turn, cut, twist, sand, stretch, the pieces you want to.

17.1.1.d.1.a.2

No material or mechanical extension may be added to any required original component unless specifically authorized by these rules. Any repair performed to a required original component shall clearly serve no other prohibited function.

You can't weld, extend, or repair components so that they serve a prohibited function.

17.1.1.G.1 Block

The block may be rebored no more than 1.2 mm larger than the maximum dimension given on the specification linefor that make, model, and displacement. A cylinder block from any model from the same manufacturer which is of the same material and dimensionally identical throughout, except for non critical bosses, is permitted.


17.1.1.G.2

Cylinder sleeves may be fitted to the block for repair purposes if they serve no other prohibited function. Oil passages may be enlarged, restricted, or plugged.


*** And this is what allows Nickies at this time. This rule says nothing about the cylinder must be made from the original material****

17.1.1.22 Definitions:

Cylinder liner (sleeve)- An insert in an engine block which defines the path followed by a piston in its reciprocating motion.

Block- The Elemental component of a reciprocating engine which contains at least the cylinder location(s) and the crankshaft mounting points.

17.1.1.M.1 Other engine components

The use of alternate engine components which are normally expendable and considered replacment parts, such as seals, bearing,water pumps etc.. is permitted

EP SPEC LINE FOR 914 2.O and 914-6 2.0:

block material: Alloy
Head mat'l: Alloy

Steel alloy, aluminum alloy it isn't specific. The spec line also does not say anything about cylinders.

So does that mean my iron lined, aluminun fined cylinders are not legal?? I don't think so. Cuse Homey don't play dat.

FP SPEC LINE:914 1.8

Block Mat'l: Alum
head Mat'l Alum

Nothing is specified about cylinders on the spec line.

So heres the deal, if you have nickies are they legal?

I would say, YES they are. It specifically says cylinder sleeves may be fitted to the block for repair. I would say it is easily arguable that cylinder sleeves wear out in 914 engines and need to be replaced. It does not say the cylinder sleeves must be of the original material (cast iron). Furthermore, Can cylinder sleeves be considered to be expendable replacement parts. I would also say they could be considered replacement parts since there is no way to refurbish a steel liner once it is worn out. Not the case with Nickies, they can be replated.

Three times is a charm. Due to the way the Spec line is written. If one would argue that cylinders are part of the block so they can envoke 17.1.1.G.1 " A cylinder block from any model from the same manufacture which is of the same material and dimensionally identical throughout, except for critical bosses, is permitted". Using the statement "same material and dimensionally identical" would not be supported as the spec line lists alum as the material. So this is not a defendable position. Due to the spec line being written as it is. Lets not forget that this would also make anyone using 2.0 liter 94mm cylinders in their FP 1.8 motors illegal if someone wants to make the argument that the Block must be dimensionally identical throughout.

So after all of this bullshit has passed, critical time will have elapsed putting 914 drivers again behind the eight ball as opposed to in front of it where people like Raby and you have gotten the 4 cyl guys to where they should be.

Those who start this shit should be ready to finish it, because it just plain sounds like sour grapes, and it really pisses me off. It's a shame we finally have some momentum and some asshole wants to start the shit storm, man am I really pissed off. This is the reason we will always finish second, because we are not united in our quest.

Erik Madsen 914-6 EP

[Jake Raby]

Erik, Thanks for the post... That was the way I interpreted it too for so long, but.....

Wanna see one pissed off SOB?? Let some freakin whiner try to take a trophy from a podium finisher that has my engine in it and hundreds of hours of work for some stupid reason and some vague rules......

I want to save that lightning storm before it happens- even if it means stopping mid way through the build process with 3 engines and starting from scratch all over again.......

I have more than enough street work us absolutely slammed and there are no rules there- I can make my own and have been for a long time so its not looking like we'll be playing this game in 2006 and beyond if they can't get some specific rules and answers... Hell it took an act of congress to get an answer on manifold length earlier in the year from these guys..

I was planning on attending the run-offs this year to support my guys, but it probably would not be wise for me to be there if someone starts this bullshit, I doubt I could hold my sanity.

[Thorshammer]

You and me both,

Even though I maintain a good relationship with the SCCA, I still feel it stand for Still Can't Comprehend Anything.

Foley started to rally the drivers to close some of the loopholes in the PCS/GCR and in the end no one wanted to make any changes. So he ended up deleting many of his posts. I support this closing of the loopholes. If you can only have cast iron, then torque plate and soft hones here I come. But the rules support a reduction in cost as well, adn although the Nickies ARE more expensive, they are repairable and replatable, meaning they can be used for many years, whereas cast iron can't.

I can pretty much figure out whos causing a stink. it does not take a genius. And it is Bullshit. There ought to be a rule, that you can just plain stomp a hole in someone when they act like a JACKASS, by doing this shit. I have always wanted to really piss off the SCCA by making them close the rules when I show up with a car that has several thing that enhance performance, but they can't stop it.

How about this. The rules say that air cleaners,velocity stacks, and air supply ducts and boxes are unrestricted provided no modification of the body or chassis of the car is required to accomodate their use. I can see me showing up to the Runoffs with this big F5000 air inlet duct on top of my engine lid feeding my cars nice, cool....fresh air. And they can't stop me, they have no way to do it, it says I CAN. But you would piss everyone off that could'nt stop you. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/pissoff.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/bootyshake.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/flipa.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/mad.gif)

And to the guy or guys stirring the pot (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/finger.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/bootyshake.gif)

Erik Madsen

[ChrisFoley]

The guys spreading the rumor that Nickies aren't legal in Production don't know how to read the rules, plain and simple. They don't use logic and don't even apply the rules properly to their own car preparation.

Over the years I have had the occasion to write to the SCCA Club Racing Board several times for rules modifications. In each case what I asked for was granted because I followed the correct procedures and used clear logic to back up my requests.
The bottom line is - If I didn't think something was arguably legal I wouldn't bother doing it! I intend to be prepared for anyone who wants to confront me on this subject at the track.

[Brett W]

Two words Super Production. Bring your hammer and hope it is bigger than everyone elses.

[groot]

I think it's very clear Nickies are allowed in production.

However, they are not allowed in Solo2, prepared. This may be why some are confused. It says "Sleeves, cast iron" on the 914 spec line.

[Brett W]

Actually GT3 rules specify cast iron sleeves. Don't know why SCCA would allow them for production and not GT

[ChrisFoley]

QUOTE (Brett W @ May 24 2005, 08:46 AM)

Don't know why SCCA would allow them for production and not GT

It's simple. The rules weren't written at one time by one person or committee. They are built up over time as a collection of adjustments based on protest rulings and written requests by competitors.
I bet if a person presented a logical argument to the Club Racing Board they could get the spec line it the GTCS changed to allow aluminum. After all, the 914 isn't competetive as currently specified in GT3.

[ChrisFoley]

Obviously this topic has hit a raw nerve with someone!

Apparently we have an anonymous lurker here who thinks he needs to use foolish scare tactics to try and get us to not use Nickies in our race engines. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/bs.gif) This individual has a lot of testosterone and no where to store it, since it doesn't take any balls to launch anonymous attacks over the phone to people who really have nothing to do with their problem. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dhead.gif)
I got an email from my engine builder describing a phone call he had this morning. The caller had his ID blocked and didn't identify himself. He immediately went into a tirade about protesting anyone who used Nickies cylinders in their engine at the Runoffs, and when Jake started to fire back he hung up. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif)
I've been thinking about who such a person might be and why would he lurk here. There is very little content having to do with SCCA Production racing on this forum, so it is likely that he drives a 914 in SCCA Club Racing. I doubt it is anyone I already know because they would be more likely to confront me directly at the race track. Besides, I don't think anyone I already know is likely to behave that way. In fact I don't think any of the people I have ever interacted with in the Prod racing community are likely to behave that way.
If this person thinks anonymous intimidation tactics will get him anywhere he is totally wrong. I think he should present himself here and make his beef public, as the rest of us have not been trying to hide anything. If not on this forum then this individual should contact me personally and let me know exactly what his problem is, since I am the only guy who has claimed that I have a powerful F Prod race engine built by Jake Raby that may have Nickies inside. Otherwise, I'll see you at the race track! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/alfred.gif)

[redshift]

It's not me!

Just clearing things up.

Chris, what was the ruling on your oil slick, and smoke screen? Have you used the front mounted machine guns yet?

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)


M

[Brett W]

Sounds like a loser that rides around in the back of the pack.

[ChrisFoley]

QUOTE (redshift @ May 24 2005, 08:35 PM)

Chris, what was the ruling on your oil slick, and smoke screen? Have you used the front mounted machine guns yet?

The oil slick is not legal.
The smoke screen is ok as long as it doesn't get inside my own cockpit.
Ixnay on the achinemay ungay! I haven't had to use it yet and no one knows that I have it. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[ChrisFoley]

QUOTE (Brett W @ May 25 2005, 01:20 AM)

Sounds like a loser that rides around in the back of the pack.

I've thought about this some more and I think you may be right Brett. Not only that it is probably someone I do know already. The SCCA 914 racing community isn't that big after all.
A conversation with a friend yesterday indicates it may be the same person who has been (occasionally) giving me shit ever since I started racing Nationals.
If it is him he ought to be ashamed of himself for such behavior. He has held a variety of positions of authority in the SCCA over the years and such underhanded tactics are clearly a violation of the ethics of club racing.

[nein14-6]

Now Chris, lets not go burning bridges here. I know to whom you are referring to and he would never do anything like that, he wouldn’t care!

[ChrisFoley]

Rob,
We could beat around the bush all day, but unless the individual who threatened protest to Mr. Raby comes forward everything is only speculation. But, the fact remains, there just aren't that many players. I would like to think anyone who has that much interest in the topic of the legality of alternate cylinders in a SCCA 914 would be willing to join the debate openly, make his points, and not hide behind a mask of anonymity.
I certainly have not tried to be secretive about the way I intend to prepare my race car within what I believe the boundaries of the rules are. I share the opinion that Erik Madsen has expressed - that the 914 community needs to be more unified in their efforts to beat a host of other manufacturer backed race efforts.