Do you run harnesses on the street?, why wouldnt you? Options

[914Timo]

Hmmmm.... I dont use mine on the street. I used to use them, but it is so difficult to tune radio or do something else. They also took too long to put tight. If you have thicker or lighter clothes you have to adjust them. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

Well, I bought new retracteable seatbelts. Now I have in the drivers place both. In normal traffic I use the retracteable seatbelts and if I like to "race" I can run the 5-poits. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

[jimtab]

QUOTE (seanery @ May 25 2005, 06:03 PM)

I don't think I'd use them on the street. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) Do you guys remember THIS THREAD? Granted, this is a race car WITH a roll cage...but look at the damage it took even with the cage! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1047268768.jpg)(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1047268822.jpg) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1047268867.jpg)(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1047343883.jpg) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1047344240.jpg)(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1047344417.jpg) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1047344519.jpg)

It would be interesting to know at what speed this "accident" occured, most street accidents don't take place at racing speeds/

[MarkG]

It's the third collision that kills you:

First collision is auto vs. another object.

Second collision is your body (traveling at same speed as your car) striking what ever it strikes (dash, steering wheel etc.)

Third collision is your brain (traveling at same speed as your body/car) crashing into your skull. This can be violent enough to rip part of the rear of the brain also (it 'floats' in a semi-thick fluid in your skull).

Prevent - or lessen - collision #2 and there is much less chance of collision #3 occurring.

I have seen an autopsy where a driver was wearing a 3 point inertia OEM seat belt when he struck a tree. Fatal at the scene, no obvious external injuries. Turns out the force of impact was sufficient that the lateral shoulder belt put force just right to rip his aorta out of his heart.

[ArtechnikA]

legal? depends where you are, and what belts you have...

i'm glad CHP (and presumably SDPD) have decided not to press the matter, but that can't be depended upon universally...

Schroth Belts On Street Enforcement Thread

as previously posted, there ARE DOT-certified harnesses available that probably also (i haven't looked lately...) carry SFI ratings. so if that issue is a concern for you, do that.

i've done both.

so here's a related question: how many of you relying on the factory belts are still relying on the integrity of the 30-year-old Nylon, and how many have had them re-webbed?

the ancedotal evidence in my area is that as long as you're secured, they're not too concerned about how. i expect a real hard-nose cop could write you up, especially if you've already failed the 'attitude test', and you'd have a hard time defending your position against the letter of the law...

[GTeener]

QUOTE (MarkG @ May 26 2005, 09:09 AM)

It's the third collision that kills you: First collision is auto vs. another object. Second collision is your body (traveling at same speed as your car) striking what ever it strikes (dash, steering wheel etc.) Third collision is your brain (traveling at same speed as your body/car) crashing into your skull. This can be violent enough to rip part of the rear of the brain also (it 'floats' in a semi-thick fluid in your skull). Prevent - or lessen - collision #2 and there is much less chance of collision #3 occurring. I have seen an autopsy where a driver was wearing a 3 point inertia OEM seat belt when he struck a tree. Fatal at the scene, no obvious external injuries. Turns out the force of impact was sufficient that the lateral shoulder belt put force just right to rip his aorta out of his heart.

Excellent points. I've heard the pro racers are also using chest straps with their shoulder harnesses because in a high speed crash the central innards weren't being secured enough and with the forward inertia chest cavities/rib cages were breaking. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/icon8.gif)

[Joe Ricard]

QUOTE (914Timo @ May 26 2005, 04:18 AM)

Hmmmm.... I dont use mine on the street. I used to use them, but it is so difficult to tune radio or do something else. They also took too long to put tight. If you have thicker or lighter clothes you have to adjust them. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

Radio.... You got a radio in your car? how novel. what a concept.
I was just pulled over at one of them random ID checks. Cop said cool car make sure you keep them belts on and told me to have a nice drive.
So much for Mississippi laws.

[mudfoot76]

PO removed the factory belts in my car, so I only have a harness. I always snug the belts down when I do have the chance to drive it on the street. The harness keeps me secured into my racing seat better than a 3 pt probably would anyways. I've heard numerous debates pro and con for wearing harnesses w/o a roll cage, or 3 pts with a roll cage, harness w/ roll cage and any other permutation.

I have many friends who work for EMS, and they have told me about extracting accident victims from all types of vehicles. The above post about wanting to avoid collision of body w/other interior bits of the car is very correct, and a primary driver behind seatbelts in the first place. If you aren't bouncing around inside the passenger compartment you are safer. If you roll over, there are many other bad things that have happened. Nobody has ever explained to me the reasoning behind the "danger" of wearing the harness to a point that is convincing to me. My friends in EMS say the harness is at least as good as the 3 pt because in the event of a low or medium speed roll over, you are better secured into your seat and less likely to bounce our of your seat and into the roof (high speed roll over w/catastrophic structure failure you are f'ed regardless). But yes, the harness needs to be adjusted properly at all times. If you look at a baby seat, most of those have 4 or 5 pt harnesses built in. A racing bucket seat appears awfully similar to a scaled up baby seat, though I am not a structural engineer...

I was once stopped at a seatbelt checkpoint in my 914. The police didn't have any objections to me wearing the harness, and didn't ask if the car had the factory installed belts. So as far as Indiana is concerned, law enforcement doesn't seem to care all that much what kind of seat belt one wears, just so long as you wear something....

Did the 356 have only lap belts? Does PCA (or other sanctioning body that runs HPDE) require lap belt only cars to be upgraded to at least 3 pt?

[Howard]

Interesting stuff. Dan Gurney said he didn't wear any belts in the Eagle F1 car. So much magnesium that he felt the risk of fire was greater.. he wanted to be able to bail out in a hurry.

So every form of passenger restraint has some nasty side effects, but as was said, a lot of bad things have already happened when they are needed.

I like Geoff's comparison to the infant seat. I've gotta feel that a racing seat and 5 point belts are still the safest solution, street or track. OK, maybe 20 airbags but the car would weigh as much as your house. Hell, stay in your house, it's even safer (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (mudfoot76 @ May 26 2005, 02:45 PM)

Nobody has ever explained to me the reasoning behind the "danger" of wearing the harness to a point that is convincing to me. ... (high speed roll over w/catastrophic structure failure you are f'ed regardless)

i'd be happy to go show you a picture my my 914 which had a medium-speed rollover. the top came off and was recovered some distance away. the windscreen hoop was flattened pretty well, down to about the middle of the B-Pillar. the top of the Targa bar was dented but not deformed and the rear glass was not broken (although obviously the windscrceen was - into a zillion bits.)

we had harnesses and Corbeau seats. (my ex- was driving...) the instructor was tall but /6's have non adjustable right seats anyway so his head was tucked up close to the Targa bar. my ex- had the driver's seat up pretty far but she's short. no injuries.

"the reasoning" is that if the roof gets flattened you have no place to go. yes, there will always be non-survivable crashes but the point is to keep your safety equipment from injuring you in the others.

QUOTE

Did the 356 have only lap belts? Does PCA (or other sanctioning body that runs HPDE) require lap belt only cars to be upgraded to at least 3 pt?

356's prior to 1962 don't even have those and properly fitting them is a bit of a structural challenge because even in jurisdictions that grandafther pre-62 cars, i choose not to drive with NO Protection... some sanctioning bodies -do- require retrofitting harnesses and again - it's a challenge to find a place to mount them properly. in the later cars, the factory shoulder belt mount is an M8 mounted in single-shear.

finding ways to properly mount updated harnesses in the early cars is a frequent topic on the 356Talk list, and one with few really satifying answers because those cars are quite literally from another time.

i'm installing a roll bar in my '71 011 Targa because although every sanctioning body i care to participate in agrees the Targa bar is satisfactory rollover protection for their purposes, there is essentially no way to properly mount shoulder harnesses without utilising a crossbar built into the rollover bar secured to the tub.

[jandro62]

Gurney's seat must have been very well molded then. When driving formula cars I have to have the belts tightened down sufficiently that I don't flop forward under the extreme braking (formula brakes can do well over 1.0 g).

[DougC]

So is the general consensus that if your street car has a cage (mine has a simple 4 point inside the cabin) that you really ought to use a 4 or 5 point harness? No original belts, right?

Doug C

[anthony]

Actually, I don't think there's much concensus here. It seems like a lot of people have just decided that belts are safer with or without a cage. The concensus AFAICT in the racer community is that you don't want to run belts without a roll bar or cage (you posted the reverse) to avoid neck compression (as rich explained).

[mudfoot76]

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ May 26 2005, 02:05 PM)

"the reasoning" is that if the roof gets flattened you have no place to go.

I'm not trying to be an assbag when I ask this, but how would your example have been different given a factory 3pt seat belt? Sunny side down is still sunny side down. With the harness, I expect they were held more securely into the Corbeau, while a 3pt might have allowed them to be thrown towards the roof by their own intertia during the roll.

With the three point (or four point), is the 'advantage' that you can "slide down" in the seat (towards the floor/pedals) if there is need?

[anthony]

QUOTE (mudfoot76 @ May 26 2005, 01:40 PM)

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ May 26 2005, 02:05 PM) "the reasoning" is that if the roof gets flattened you have no place to go. I'm not trying to be an assbag when I ask this, but how would your example have been different given a factory 3pt seat belt? Sunny side down is still sunny side down. With the harness, I expect they were held more securely into the Corbeau, while a 3pt might have allowed them to be thrown towards the roof by their own intertia during the roll. With the three point (or four point), is the 'advantage' that you can "slide down" in the seat (towards the floor/pedals) if there is need?

If the roof is flattened, with a 5 point, you have have no chance of escaping a neck compression injury. With a factory 3 point it would be possible to move your neck to either side.

As you said, a 5 point would keep you more securely strapped in and prevent you from flying all around the cabin. There are certainly compromises with every system.

[MarkG]

Another incident we had involved two girls on their way to the beach in a MGB convertible. 3 point belts in place, flipped and skidded through intersection. Windshield pillar was compromised and both occupants were ground down to their torsos. But for the fact they were wearing bikinis, would not have been able to determine sex of occupants just by a quick look. NOT wearing seatbelts probably would have had the same fatalities, but from impact injuries striking the roadway rather than being smeared into the road.

Some accident are going to be catastrophic, no matter what.

I do have a question about the 3-point wearers being able to move their heads in a roll-over to avoid crushing/compression injuries....are we assuming this occurs naturally during the roll over event, or are we assuming that a person under this level of G-force will have the physical ability (and mental clarity) to be able to 'duck and cover'?

I'm just wondering if it's a false sense of security, or is it a bona fide argument that meets the laws of physics?

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (MarkG @ May 26 2005, 05:39 PM)

are we assuming that a person under this level of G-force will have the physical ability (and mental clarity) to be able to 'duck and cover'?

although i wasn't in the 914 when it went over, i was in a Jetta GLI Coupe that went offroad and over at near-highway speed (was sideways quite a bit before that i'm sure scrubbed off a lot). factory 3-point inertia-reel belt in use. i frankly don't recall what i did at the time, but i believe it is reflexive for people to "duck" in the presence of danger.

in that car, the windscreen didn't break, but the rear window did (or popped out -- it was long gone...). the top was squished a bit in the middle but the pillars didn't buckle. i was able to open all 4 doors, although the driver's door was sticky in large part, i suppose, to the dent from its having snapped off a highway sign at ground level on its way offroad...

no injuries to me, the cat, nor the 3 middlesize dogs in the car at the time.

[eeyore]

I know of two fellers who rolled their pickup out in the desert. Stock seats, sealbelts. The rollover must have been slow, because the said they were just squirshed down over onto the bench seat, sideways.

I suppose the same thing could be said for use of racing seats instead of 4 & 5 point harnesses. They enforce an upright position too.

I'm in the damned if you do, damned if you don't camp.

If a car flips over, the roofs fails, and you get pushed 'down' under the seatbelt, or sideways, isn't it head/neck compression that is driving the body down or sideways?

[redshift]

QUOTE (Howard @ May 26 2005, 03:00 PM)

Interesting stuff. Dan Gurney said he didn't wear any belts in the Eagle F1 car. So much magnesium that he felt the risk of fire was greater.. he wanted to be able to bail out in a hurry.

LOL! Funny, I hardly ever wear a belt either.. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

Look, it wrinkles my clothes, ok?

I wear a best when I think I am about to be pulled over, approaching a license check, or when I have decided that I am going to go twice the speed limit, through a neighborhood full of those blind kids playing signs.


M

[redshift]

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ May 26 2005, 05:49 PM)

the cat, nor the 3 middlesize dogs in the car at the time.

You travel with a posse. Good thing they were wearing belts!


M

[hmeeder]

Only one of 'em was a posse, t'others was dargs.