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> Keep Dellorto DRLA 45s and Bosch 009?
98101
post Nov 25 2017, 05:44 AM
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Michael in Seattle
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I suddenly find myself owning 1970 4-cylinder 2.4 with Web hot street Cam idles nicely and pulls hard at WOT. Part throttle response is not great, often with carbs coughing and even backfiring on trailing throttle. My use is mostly street, so I'd like to get this part throttle stuff sorted.

Here's pictures of the stuff that's in there now. I guess that's the infamous Bosch 009 with no vacuum advance and a PerTronix 1847A. The carbs are Dellorto DRLA 45s with short velocity stacks and these tall foam things that don't seal against the air cleaner housings. I'm willing to learn about the carbs but I don't have much confidence in the 009 for running nicely on the street. Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this stuff.

Also from other threads I gather that switching to EFI such as MicroSquirt would cost $5K or so ... though I'm not ruling this out completely. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

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Is this kind of linkage OK?
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Here's the idle you may have seen in another post:


Any help you can provide is appreciated!

--Michael in Seattle
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GeorgeRud
post Nov 25 2017, 08:37 AM
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I don’t think a micro squirt conversion runs that much, but I’d look for ignition control if you were switching over. The Bosch 009 doesn’t work that well from what I’ve heard, but perhaps others can chime in what has worked for them.
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Mark Henry
post Nov 25 2017, 11:14 AM
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Cheapest would be to ditch the hex bar and get a CSP linkage, then find a redtop Mallory dizzy. You could ditch the points and add a pertronix, plus get grey/grey springs from aircooled.net

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bandjoey
post Nov 25 2017, 01:04 PM
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Buy the CBPerformance Dellorto book and your carb problems will go away as to spitting and coughing or other carb issues
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HarveyH
post Nov 25 2017, 01:15 PM
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Once upon a time long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away (pre-internet) I was researching recommendations for a jetting for Weber 40 IDF's on a 2056 with a hot cam. I called several Weber suppliers, and they all recommended major upgrades to the ignition system as a starting point. This included a multi-spark box, upgraded coil and a point replacement system. I went with the Crane Hi-6 and PS-91 coil and a Pertronix and it made a major improvement in driveability.

As time went by, the internet came along and I found out the 009 distributor the Previous Owner installed was nor really suitable for Ty4 engine. The Mallory was recommended, but the original equipment Bosch would be vastly superior to the 009. Since the PO had included the original distributor with the car, I reinstalled that and again found a significant improvement in driveability.

Harvey
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rhodyguy
post Nov 25 2017, 01:36 PM
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Invest in the CB dell manual and a synchronizing tool. Pelican (among others) has them, #PEL-TOL-STESK. Or be prepared spend $100+an hour to have someone sort the carbs out. You could buy a 123 dist for a carbed engine and have money leftover just to discover what might be amiss if subbing out the work. While the 009 will fuction, your ingnition will not be optimized.

Do those tall air filters interfere with the rain tray?

PS replace the fuel line clamps with the shouldered variety as opposed to the slotted type.

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98101
post Nov 25 2017, 02:18 PM
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Michael in Seattle
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I found what might be the linkage Mark's recommending?
http://www.mamotorworks.com/VW/product/car...engine-325064-4
It says for IDFs... also suitable for DRLAs?

But I'm guessing that there's not much point in tinkering with the carbs until a more appropriate distributor is installed -- is that correct?

Sorry for a possibly dumb question: I'm actually not 100.0% sure that's a Bosch 009. I assumed that it was because I googled the number on the rotor "1234332215 .08" and it was associated with the 009. Do I definitely have a 009 now?
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Another view showing the PerTronix 1847A position sensor. I guess I'd need to move that oil pressure sender if I installed a Mallory?
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I'm reading about the Mallory distributor now. I found some old posts where Jake Raby is recommending the non-vacuum advance models because those mechanisms are hard to tune and unreliable. So that's interesting.

A previous owner installed the PerTronix Flame Thrower coil in 2010 along with the breakerless ignition.

The previous owner provided Bob Tomlinson's 1995 "The Dellorto Superformance" book.

The foam things don't look like they're sealing well. I haven't found air filters that would fit online yet. I'm curious why the current air cleaners are so much taller than the velocity stacks... maybe someone was thinking about top end only?
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98101
post Nov 25 2017, 02:34 PM
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QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Nov 25 2017, 11:36 AM) *

Invest in the CB dell manual and a synchronizing tool. Pelican (among others) has them, #PEL-TOL-STESK. Or be prepared spend $100+an hour to have someone sort the carbs out.

In progress -- thank you!

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Nov 25 2017, 11:36 AM) *

You could buy a 123 dist for a carbed engine and have money leftover just to discover what might be amiss if subbing out the work. While the 009 will fuction, your ingnition will not be optimized.

I wasn't aware of this option. Thank you.

John Walker said he *might* look at my car if he's available mid-December. My theory now is that the 009 (and the hex linkage?) by themselves may be sufficient to explain the poor street behavior.

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Nov 25 2017, 11:36 AM) *

Do those tall air filters interfere with the rain tray?

Yes, they would interfere with a rain tray. The car came from San Jose with boxes of parts I haven't even opened yet. I'm guessing a rain tray is not amongst them. I drove it in the rain once to get it the rest of the way home from Auburn. It wasn't an experience I'd like to have again.

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Nov 25 2017, 11:36 AM) *

PS replace the fuel line clamps with the shouldered variety as opposed to the slotted type.

Thank you! I will do that, or have it done so I don't screw it up. Any other changes you'd make, especially safety related?
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rhodyguy
post Nov 25 2017, 03:36 PM
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The Mallory distributor body is rather large. Dimpling of the pass side engine tin is required. As I understand the situation, sourcing new modules for the mallorys is difficult.
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porschetub
post Nov 25 2017, 04:03 PM
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In your carb pic the vacuum advance port isn't capped off ??
If you are infact running a 09 it will need to capped off,check the other side carb also ,you may or may not have the same there.
Do you know the spec's of the carbs ?? ,been said many times but they are still large carbs for even a 2.4 if not setup right...that will leave a very soggy mid range if not right.
If your carbs are close to being dialed in you could try a vacuum advance dizzy such as the SVDA or 034 (?) Bosch type if you have vacuum ports on both carbs ,larger carbs and a hot street cam will most like see the 09 being even less desirable.
Are you running the right fuel pressure ?,is your fuel from a regulated source or direct from a LP pump ?.
Someone like John Walker will most likely need to see the engine fully tuned (plugs ,leads,timing and valve clearances ) before he will attempt tuning the carbs ,that's the order its done in.
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MarkV
post Nov 25 2017, 09:20 PM
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I have a 2056 with Dellorto 40's. My car came with a 050 distributor which is supposed to be better suited to a 914 that the 009. I played around with the 050 trying to get is set up to work right in my car.... installed a Pertronix and a different coil. Tried running a CDI box. Had a flat spot just off of idle that I couldn't ever get rid of. Bought a $75 used dual point Mallory and converted it to a Pertronix II. The Mallory is way superior to the Bosch 050. The bushing/bearings are larger, the distance between the plug wires is further apart and work better and aren't as prone to spark scatter. The advance mechanism is easily user adjustable. I did not have to modify the tin or the oil sender in any way. The Mallory is the way to go if you ask me it made a huge drive-ability difference.

From my perspective you can't really pay some one to set up Dellortos for you because of the trial and error involved. You have to learn how they work and how to adjust them. I rebuilt mine and change the vents size & jet size and got them working really well. Once they are set up they don't require much in the way of adjustment. Make sure the cross-bar linkage is set up properly and the carbs are both opening at the same rate.

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thelogo
post Nov 25 2017, 11:39 PM
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I assumed when you test drove the car it was running strong

But you have to remember a big 4 is not going to run like a
Toyota camry

Its a carbed , 91 octane , with headers brute . Abrasive and snorting burbbling monster


So minor adjustments aside it should run more like a race /track car then a street or cruiser

My 2.3 has webbers it runs smooth at all
Rpm but everything was dialed in at a shop
Its close to perfect
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98101
post Nov 26 2017, 03:03 AM
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QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Nov 25 2017, 11:36 AM) *

You could buy a 123 dist for a carbed engine and have money leftover just to discover what might be amiss if subbing out the work. While the 009 will fuction, your ingnition will not be optimized.

I read the whole thread about the 123 Distributor Group Buy at http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=318153. I enjoyed reading how everyone was super excited at first, then ran into some problems, and then mostly worked them out. Well, except the guy who seized his engine.

Anyway, the 123 sounds like the most fun to me at the moment, and still way more affordable than aftermarket EFI. The Bluetooth version with the 12V switch between two modes is especially interesting. I could see having a conservative “try not to cough” mode while the car is warming up, and an aggressive mode.

I could not tell from the thread whether the 123 would require relocating the oil pressure sensor or bending any tin. It sounded like no.
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98101
post Nov 26 2017, 03:10 AM
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Michael in Seattle
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QUOTE(thelogo @ Nov 25 2017, 09:39 PM) *

Its a carbed , 91 octane , with headers brute . Abrasive and snorting burbbling monster

It’s the backfires that bother me the most, thinking that too many of them might cause damage. But yeah, I’m not expecting it to be as inoffensive as my Miata.
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98101
post Nov 26 2017, 03:18 AM
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Michael in Seattle
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QUOTE(MarkV @ Nov 25 2017, 07:20 PM) *

Bought a $75 used dual point Mallory and converted it to a Pertronix II.

Do you remember which model Mallory it was? I’m guessing the dual point feature doesn’t matter for the PerTronix II, but my guesses seem to be wrong half the time.

Mark, where do you get your jets and air filters for your Dells? Someone can tell me if I’m wrong, but I can’t see how the foam wraps my car’s previous owner was using would stop much of anything.
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98101
post Nov 26 2017, 03:34 AM
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QUOTE(porschetub @ Nov 25 2017, 02:03 PM) *

In your carb pic the vacuum advance port isn't capped off ??

Whoa, in the photo it sure looks like it’s not sealed! I’ll check both of those. Now I’m confused how it could idle so smoothly. I guess I should check for vacuum leaks in general.

Thank you (and everyone else) for this help. With my first two 914s in the 1980s I was pretty much alone with these problems, unless you count the Haynes manual. Now the cars are much older but there’s so much more advice online. Also I don’t have to live in fear of getting it back together by morning since I don’t depend on it to get to work. And spending money on stuff is way less of a problem now.

OTOH, wife does not understand why I’d spend time on this at all! She was especially annoyed when I told her I’d keep my Miata as a rain car. Why would this annoy her any more than me upgrading the SSD in my computer?

Anyway, thanks all. You’ve given me a lot of homework and I’ll do my best.
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Mark Henry
post Nov 26 2017, 10:46 AM
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QUOTE(98101 @ Nov 26 2017, 04:18 AM) *

QUOTE(MarkV @ Nov 25 2017, 07:20 PM) *

Bought a $75 used dual point Mallory and converted it to a Pertronix II.

Do you remember which model Mallory it was? I’m guessing the dual point feature doesn’t matter for the PerTronix II, but my guesses seem to be wrong half the time.


Any red cap VW Mallory will do the job, you can convert it to a pertronix, but if you run single point with a MSD or Crane CDI box the point wear issue becomes minimal.

Some of the older Mallory's have manual oiling, not a huge issue but you must oil with a pin oiler say once a year.
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MarkV
post Nov 26 2017, 10:49 AM
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QUOTE(98101 @ Nov 26 2017, 02:18 AM) *

QUOTE(MarkV @ Nov 25 2017, 07:20 PM) *

Bought a $75 used dual point Mallory and converted it to a Pertronix II.

Do you remember which model Mallory it was? I’m guessing the dual point feature doesn’t matter for the PerTronix II, but my guesses seem to be wrong half the time.

Mark, where do you get your jets and air filters for your Dells? Someone can tell me if I’m wrong, but I can’t see how the foam wraps my car’s previous owner was using would stop much of anything.


There are always a few Mallory VW Distributors for sale on Ebay. I don't think it matters whether you get the dual point or the single point model.... the entire point plate gets replaced as part of the Pertronix. Mine is part # 2554101. Here is one for sale now:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-AirCooled-Beetl...2wAAOSwo4pYG2km

The filters came from CB Performance. They are the 3 1/4" and clear the rain tray.

All of the carb parts came from a guy that has a web store on Ebay. I think its called ALPHA1750S ....he is in Italy and sells most every DRLA part you could need.

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GregAmy
post Nov 26 2017, 10:54 AM
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QUOTE(98101 @ Nov 26 2017, 04:10 AM) *

QUOTE(thelogo @ Nov 25 2017, 09:39 PM) *

Its a carbed , 91 octane , with headers brute . Abrasive and snorting burbbling monster

It’s the backfires that bother me the most, thinking that too many of them might cause damage. But yeah, I’m not expecting it to be as inoffensive as my Miata.

It's quite possible - likely - that your idle circuits are plugged or dirty. "Ask me how I know".

+1 on the CB Performance bible, snail-style airflow gauge, and learning about them yourself. The book can be a bit disjointed at times - for example, some pages are out of order...he really should have had someone edit it for him - but it's fantastic information.

While you're placing that order, go ahead and order a couple gasket/rebuild kits. You'll potentially arrive at what I did, and that's spend an afternoon rebuilding/cleaning carbs.

<---- 40s on the race car now a big Del fan...though I really like the stock fuel injection on the stock 2L street car...
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MarkV
post Nov 26 2017, 11:02 AM
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Mine has a black cap... I bought a second one as a spare and it also has a black cap. I think the black and red caps are interchangeable and the red came on the newer models.

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