got a line on a 2.7 six, what else do i need to convert Options

[freezing14]

finally got a line on a decetly priced 2.7 CIS with shroud and alt,, no headers ,, locally imagine that ,, off a front end smashed car ,, you hooooo,,, he is asking 2500 cad,, so 2K us,, what should i check for on the engine and what do i really need to buy for the conversion,, i can fab a lot of stuff, like the sheet metal, the quick six type engine mount, what the deal with the oil tank??? do i need some adapter plate for the 901,, i think i need an early flywheel!! any other insights

the car is a just finished to be restore 72 with a 1.7

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (freezing14 @ May 27 2005, 02:22 PM)

finally got a line on a decetly priced 2.7 CIS ... 2K us what should i check for on the engine and what do i really need to buy for the conversion what the deal with the oil tank??? do i need some adapter plate for the 901,, i think i need an early flywheel!

make sure you get ALL the 2,7 stuff - especially the fuel pump and filter, and as many factory lines as you can. CIS runs ~4Bar so you don't want to be scrimping on leaky fuel lines.

i wouldn't cheap out on an engine mount, but maybe that's just me.
the deal on an oil tank is you definitely need one, and it's another place not to be too cheap because if done incorrectly it can kill your engine. especially if it ever sees any track time (and what would be the fun otherwise?)

make sure you have or get an 11-blade fan.

look for head studs pulling.

obviously you will need an exhaust. yes, you will need a 914.6 or pre-'70 911 flywheel.
you'll want a 6-cyl tach. you'll probably want oil temp & pressure gauges to match the senders in the engine. you'll need a bunch of oil lines.

[freezing14]

what do you actually mean by head stud pulling??? is it that the bottom of the stud is ripped from the base and the head is kinda loose?

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (freezing14 @ May 27 2005, 10:37 AM)

what do you actually mean by head stud pulling??? is it that the bottom of the stud is ripped from the base and the head is kinda loose?

Yes. The 2.7s stretched the mag cases to the very limit, and most of these engines ran originally with thermal reactors for emissions, which added a lot more heat, and made the problem worse. Most 2.7s are reasonably reliable when rebuilt, but they need a first rebuild a lot earlier than the other engines. If this engine hasn't been rebuilt, it will need it, even with low mileage.

I'll double Rich's comments on getting all of the injection parts. They're hard to source individually.

[Joe Bob]

Head studs on the 2.7 get hot and pull from the case....they can be checked by removing the valve covers and checking torque...if they are loose or fall off in your hand...it's at a minimum a top end job.

[Eric_Shea]

I was under the impression that the probelm is the thermal expansion rate of the then new Nikasil cylinders. Isn't this the real culprit in the head studs pulling?

Regardless, as Rich says, look for heads studs pulling and document that (by this time) the engine was rebuilt using the proper methods to solve this problem. If not... move on. A great 3.0 is a better choice IMO.

[freezing14]

I will look into that, as I just learned that my 2.0 of the parts car engine need new valve and guide and for the 20 extra horse the 2.0 will cost me,, too bad the rest was in really good shape even the rings were still in specs,, the 2.7 seems a better choice

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ May 27 2005, 11:30 AM)

I was under the impression that the probelm is the thermal expansion rate of the then new Nikasil cylinders. Isn't this the real culprit in the head studs pulling? Regardless, as Rich says, look for heads studs pulling and document that (by this time) the engine was rebuilt using the proper methods to solve this problem. If not... move on. A great 3.0 is a better choice IMO.

It was probably a combination of several things: mag cases at the limit, new nikasil cylinders, and thermal reactors. Any one of these things would have been cause for concern. All three together spelled major problems for Porsche in the mid 70s.

This is one of the many reasons anyone contemplating a 911 engine in anything needs to buy and read Bruce Anderson's book. He covers this in extensive detail, including the right ways to fix it.

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ May 27 2005, 02:55 PM)

I'll double Rich's comments on getting all of the injection parts. They're hard to source individually.

yes - CIS parts - that's what i meant to say but i was in a bit of a rush this morning...

the warmup regulator, the mini-brain if it has one (don't know the year of the engine in question...) the accumulator, the check valve if it's not integral with the pump. ALL the air box and filter pieces.

i like CIS but the sad fact that although it's a pretty simply system, fundamentally, few people REALLY understand how it works, what to tweak, what to stay away from, and what parts do what.

for a variety of perverse reasons, i also like the 2,7's (especially when built up to 2,8) but my standard line is "you have to have a pretty good reason to consider something under 3,0." SOLO-II F-Prepared, for instance...

lots of guys building race engines actually prefer the 5R case, figuring they've had much less stress in their street-car life. or the pretty rare 73.5 last-of-the-2,4 7R's but MHO on those is that they should be left for the guys trying to build the best little motor possible.

Competition Engineering can fix whatever ails your magnesium case, but the best is rarely cheap.

[Dead Air]

Quote:

what else do i need to convert...

about $3000... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

[Eric_Shea]

In monthly installments

[Joe Bob]

And a gud looking goat...not like Eric's....

[MecGen]

Yo Dude
A supplier called me about a Boxter motor and trans (tiptronic)
Forgot what he wanted but I offered him 500$ CAD he said not, because it had papers (not stolen), but I could get it real cheap...and check it out for you.
I think the Boxter "tiptronic" is an issue for engine swaps.
I don't remember the year he told me (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif) I wasn't interested...maybe someone can clearify the swap aspect of things..
Later eh
Joe

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[lylegd]

In addition to the items already mentioned by others you can add these items to the list. A voltage regulator that is matched to your alternator. A Capacitive Ignition module and a special mount that attaches to the front edge of the battery tray. Most of the 2.7s used the 3 pin version of the ignition box but check your wiring harness before buying one. You will need to relocate your engine lid latch mechanism from the left side to the right side to make space available for the FI. Chances are you will also have to build engine mount spacers to lower the engine and tranny inside the engine bay. I lowered my engine 1.25 inches. You will also have to tinker with the layout of the large rubber hoses that connect to the warmup air regulator as these hose will compete for space with the front edge of the rear trunk sheet metal. I relocated the warm up regulator valve to the left side of the engine and then modified the hose layout. The FI is too high to fit otherwise. Plan on doing several trial fits of the engine in the engine bay to determine what has to be modified so everything fits. After lowering the engine, you will need to modify the engine surround sheet metal height. You have already mentioned that you were going to fab your own sheet metal surround so just factor this into your design. You will need the matched fuel injection pump, most likely relocated to the front of the car and also high pressure fuel lines. This system runs at 75 psi or so. You then have to built a mount for your fuel filter and fuel accumulator. I put the accumulator inside the engine bay and the pump and filter are up front under the fuel tank. You will need a 911 tachometer and should consider upgrades to 911 type oil pressure and temp gauges. Once the car is running, watch the oil temps and then decide if you need to add an external oil cooler. Some say you need one, others say you don't. I think it depends greatly on whether the engine has been modified for more horsepower and also depends on whether you will be racing the car. Some rewiring of the engine harness and the addition of a 14 pin connector is required. You might want to consider using an internally regulated alternator. This eliminates the need for an external voltage regulator, simplifies the wiring harness and makes it possible to eliminate the relay board inside the engine bay. Regarding the oil tank, don't forget that you need the special filler tube, the oil filter console and several extra hoses too. You should consider installing slightly stiffer rear springs to compensate for the extra weight. You will either have to purchase 914/6 style throttle hardware that attaches to the outside of the transmission intermediate plate or fabricate your own design linkage if you want to use an original 914 type cable. The original 911 oil cooler that came with your engine will work but it has be modified so that the oil fitting on the bottom has a 90 degree turn at the end. Otherwise your lower oil hose secured to the fitting will run smack into the side of the left rear suspension console. You can have a welder heliarc a 90 degree fitting on the end of the pipe. Here is one general suggestion for you to consider. It would be best for you to locate an original 914/6 owner that would be willing to let you put the his/her car up on a hoist long enough for you to take lots of pictures of the bottom of the engine and tranny, oil hoses, oil cooler, shifter linkage and motor mount, and close up photos inside the engine bay. If you can't take the photos then you should browse through websites like this one, looking for photos. Many of these tasks mentioned above are documented in previous postings. Regarding the transmission. Is it a side shifter? If not then consider getting one. You will be better off converting the car to a side shifter then converting it to the original 914/6 shifter linkage. You will also have to fabricate your own shfiter shaft that goes from the firewall back to the tranny. The 914/4 shaft will interfer with your exhaust system. The exact nature of this fabricated shaft will depend on whether you install original heat exchangers or go with headers.

What do you know about the history of the engine? What shape are the heads in? Does it leak oil? Does it burn oil? What are its compression numbers? I would also recommend you install the newer style oil pressure fed chain tensioners on the motor if it doesn't already have this upgrade. The older style tensioners are a major reliability problem just waiting to happen.
You should also consider time serting the case (for the cylinder head studs). I recommend you do this even if the studs haven't yet pulled out. This upgrade would require you to dismantle the engine so it would be a good time to check for any of these problems.
Lyle

[Joe Bob]

Dude....that is so hard to read....how about a paragrph break or two.... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif)

[Joe Bob]

my opinions....

Do an alternator that has an internal regulator.

The air box on the CIS can be moved so that the trunk does not need to be cut....do a search on Pelican Parts and/or tlak to Wayne Dempsey the owner.

Get the Rich Johnson bulkhead mount...weld/bolt it to the lowest level....you'll where that is when you get it and are in the bay with a welder.

Don't get ANYTHING from Patrick Motorsports....

Go to Pegasus or BAT Inc for the conversion fittings from Porsche metric to -AN and build your own oil lines.

Get a REAL 914 oil tank...runaway from Vellious aftermarket ones.

Use Eurorace headers unless you can find a nice set of 914/6 heat exchangers.

Get the conversion flywheel and clutch parts as a package from Kennedy Engineered Parts....save bucks and hassles.

Don't be afraid to ask questions....a lot of us have done more than one conversion....

[Trekkor]

Read my "shall i say...SIX?" thread in my signature.

ALL the questions, from pre-purchase inspection, to bench running, to parts round-up and the full conversion install are covered with the full support and help of this club.

Couldn't have done it without ya! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

KT

[RAR]

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ May 27 2005, 11:30 AM)

... If not... move on.  A great 3.0 is a better choice IMO.

Yep.
Even if yes, move on. The 3.0 (or larger) is truly one durable motor, with an aluminum case.
Studs and magnesium 2.7 case expanded and contracted at different rates. Dilivar studs didn't work as a fix either. Inserts into the case to receive the studs are the good fix I believe. The best fix is sentence one, and I would prefer the 3.2 Motronic. Penny wise, etc., etc.

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (RAR @ May 27 2005, 05:42 PM)

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ May 27 2005, 11:30 AM) ... If not... move on.  A great 3.0 is a better choice IMO. Yep. Even if yes, move on. The 3.0 (or larger) is truly one durable motor, with an aluminum case. Studs and magnesium 2.7 case expanded and contracted at different rates. Dilivar studs didn't work as a fix either. Inserts into the case to receive the studs are the good fix I believe. The best fix is sentence one, and I would prefer the 3.2 Motronic. Penny wise, etc., etc.

Yeah, but the 3.0 and 3.2 weigh a good bit more than any of the mag-cased engines.

Frankly, I've always thought a 2.4 was plenty for a road car. You pretty much max out the available traction with tires that will fit without flares with one. The SC engines are very reliable, but weight is still weight, and none of these conversions would be cars likely to run up 200K miles, anyway.

The later 2.0s, the 2.2s, and the 2.4s never had the head-stud problems the 2.7s did, so it's not just the difference in case verses stud materials that caused it on the 2.7s.

[Trekkor]

I was conserned that a 2.0 SIX would not be enough.

I really enjoy it.
I recommend a SIX conversion to everyone... Any size.
As long as the motor is good. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

KT