Thinking of a different way to duct a radiator, to keep front trunk space... Options

[brant]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ May 31 2005, 02:53 PM)

Theoretically, a front mounted cooler would have some advantage, if only because more high-pressure air is available. However, if the airflow is adequate to keep things cool, then it's adequate. No more airflow required, and any more is wasted. As for balance, the 20-25lbs of rad and water in Scott's setup are roughly where the fan housing resides on the Type IV, or the front pair of cylinders are on a Six, so I'd be willing to bet the balance is just as good as it is with those engines. Theoretically speaking, keeping the weight centered near the middle of the wheelbase (which this would do), will help some aspects of handling.

On a set of corner scales, you will find that putting a person in the cockpit is not forward enough to shift the front to rear percentages as much as optimum. (I think the foot well would be near optimum, for trying to shift polar weight)

the center of the car is around the drivers butt, and not the engine bay. I'm guessing that the stock jack point is rear of the car's balance point to compensate for the rear bias of a stock car.

I fully believe that scotts set up could be lighter than stock and thus his car has better rear balance than stock....... but wouldn't a car be even more balanced and lighter by using the smallest most effiecient size as possible and putting all of the weight forward for balance purposes?

that was more my point than anything negative about Scott's car

[Hydra]

Here is a quick scetch of what i'll be doing for my eg33 conversion (flat 6 3.3 liters subaru engine). my drawing talents still need refining (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif)
i don't know if it'll fit a V8. but it's just my idea, and if you guys think it won't work please chime in.
Nick
p.s./no highjack intended: Scott, i really really could need those scoop pics, if available, pleaaase (i've looked up all your porscharu posts and couldn't find any pic of it)

[scotty914]

sorry for the high jack but i am going to post a few pics for nick here on the scoop

[lapuwali]

I think you'll find once you have all the bits in place that you won't be able to angle the rad all that much from vertical. The firewall angles back, and the trailing edge of the engine lid is about 2/3rds of the way back along the engine, not at the nose of the engine.

If anything, it would probably be easier to angle the rad back, opposite what you've drawn. However, I don't think you'd gain much airflow from this. Having a scoop below that directs air into an enclosed area on one side of the rad (using the scooped-out area of the firewall) will generate the pressure you need to force air through the rad. You can leave the other side of the rad open, dumping into the engine bay. However, more ducting that directed the air upwards would provide some amount of chimney effect, as the hot air would want to rise out of the duct, lowering the pressure in the duct, creating a stronger pressure differential across the rad.

[scotty914]

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[scotty914]

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[scotty914]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ May 31 2005, 02:37 PM)

However, I don't think you'd gain much airflow from this. Having a scoop below that directs air into an enclosed area on one side of the rad (using the scooped-out area of the firewall) will generate the pressure you need to force air through the rad. You can leave the other side of the rad open, dumping into the engine bay.

exactly what i did, i have the radiator vertical and i use the dish in the firewall to get the air as far up as possible. i think have the fans not running, just sitting there is a very large restriction, thats why i have them running all of the time.

nick ( hyrdra ) i think you would have more luck mounting the radiator on the engine lid, with the lid being a gt style lid. then use a scoop to send air in to the engine bay at speed. i dont thing unless you move the engine back ( renagade style ) you will have enough room.

[Hydra]

Thanks for the pics scott (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)
I guess the radiator's angle in the drawing isn't accurate, but the top section is to force the air out the engine lid, since you would want the coolest air possible for the engine air intake....
edit: scott, i'll be using the subaru gearbox, which alone, will give me an extra 5 inches clearance, plus i'm fabricating mounts that will give even more room for the radiator.

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (Hydra @ May 31 2005, 02:48 PM)

Thanks for the pics scott (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) I guess the radiator's angle in the drawing isn't accurate, but the top section is to force the air out the engine lid, since you would want the coolest air possible for the engine air intake....

True, but you can duct air to the airbox from the wheel well a lot easier than you can duct all of the rad air out of the engine bay.

Scott, now that you know the system works, you might try removing one of the fans and run it that way for a bit to see how the temps go. You might only need one fan at low speeds, and you've already determined you don't need both at speed.

Mounting the rad completely above the engine has some promise. Is there enough vertical clearance above the intake stuff for that?

[scotty914]

i did try to one fan at first and the temp would climb to about 200 if i was in stop and go traffic. unless it is night time and cool out i just run both fans. also there is about 4 inches of sapce to the ran tray so figure 7 to the lid it self.

nick you can only probably go back about 3 inches in my car till the engine would hit the rear trunk

[Hydra]

QUOTE

nick you can only probably go back about 3 inches in my car till the engine would hit the rear trunk

i didn;t know that, but on the other hand, I forgot to mention i'll have a trick custom air intake that will sit lower in the engine with independent intake runners, and it'll most probably be fed through the back to avoid getting hot air sucked into the engine. i'm still working on it...

[neo914-6]

QUOTE (Hydra @ May 31 2005, 02:25 PM)

Here is a quick scetch of what i'll be doing for my eg33 conversion (flat 6 3.3 liters subaru engine). my drawing talents still need refining (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif) i don't know if it'll fit a V8. but it's just my idea, and if you guys think it won't work please chime in. Nick p.s./no highjack intended: Scott, i really really could need those scoop pics, if available, pleaaase (i've looked up all your porscharu posts and couldn't find any pic of it)

Nick,

Use grid paper and measure the car to draw a scaled layout. If you already have the radiator, it's a matter of trial fitting and using card board to mock it up.

I've posted prior about the radiator in the engine lid, it may work but I'm still concerned it would be the highest point for water fill and air entrapment.

BTW, did you know "914helo" is converting to 3.3 SVX also?

[scotty914]

QUOTE (Neo914 @ May 31 2005, 05:40 PM)

I've posted prior about the radiator in the engine lid, it may work but I'm still concerned it would be the highest point for water fill and air entrapment. BTW, did you know "914helo" is converting to 3.3 SVX also?

well as far as air intrapment ... you want the air to go to the high point which is where you put your pressure cap as long as it is not in the engine a small air pocket is okay it will work its way out.

the suby 3.3 is the engine i wanted in the begining, it can hit 300 hp NA easily and i saw one on the web that was turboed at 14 psi and was doing 550 hp

[Dr. Roger]

I'm really liking this idea. Kinda like Scott's solution but different. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif)

These fans are the right size and pullers, and are reversable.

What do you guys think about two twin-pass aluminum radiators. Maybe three cored. One on each side and are shrouded. Perhaps some "helper" shrouding from below.

This would also allow room for the air filter/intake system.

[Dr. Roger]

Fan depth...

[Reiche]

QUOTE (Hydra @ May 31 2005, 03:48 PM)

the top section is to force the air out the engine lid, since you would want the coolest air possible for the engine air intake

I would think the coolest air would come from the top side of the car, not off the road surface. However, it can work, as Scott showed, and as long as it cools sufficiently, that is good enough.

I am more concerned that you will be fighting the natural airflow around the car instead of using it. Some of the air coming off the back of the roof creates an eddy, and flows forward to the engine lid area. That's why the lid curves up slightly higher than the trunk lid just behind it, to catch that airflow. Even with an underneath scoop like Scott's, I would think you will need some powerful fans to overcome that, especially at high speed.

[redshift]

With engine tin in, the rear ends want to fly around 120, with a little surface wind...

hmm...

I dunno.


M

[Dr. Roger]

Maybe I'm off but I thought there was a vacuum behind the cockpit which would lend to the sucking effect on the radiators. No?

[Mueller]

roger, your carb is going to be hitting the engine lid, or be pretty darn close to it with that high rise manifold....


a few people have installed oil coolers in that location and most have removed them and installed them in a better location

[Reiche]

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ May 31 2005, 10:51 PM)

Maybe I'm off but I thought there was a vacuum behind the cockpit which would lend to the sucking effect on the radiators.  No?

It's actually a sewing machine...

You could be right, but it would be strange to put the engine intake there if that were so.

I don't know how the air would flow without the engine tin and lower air diverters in place. Maybe that would change everything...