 914-4 factory induction, Always FI? |
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| Jetsetsurfshop |
 Jan 16 2018, 04:54 PM
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#1
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Senior Member  Group: Members Posts: 814 Joined: 7-April 11 From: Marco Island Florida Member No.: 12,907 Region Association: South East States  |
I need help with a rule in the race series I've been running. (Champ car)
The way the rules are written means they hit me for 50pts each for my carbs. If any 914-4 were sold with carbs instead of FI I could make my case and use those points for other needed stuff (transmission cooler!!) |
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| Racer |
Jan 16 2018, 05:17 PM
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#2
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 787 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Northern Virginia Member No.: 1,073 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
All US 4-Cyl had Fuel Injection. 914/6 had carbs. Although I thought that Euro 1.8 had carbs. not sure why I think that.
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| bretth |
Jan 16 2018, 07:45 PM
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#3
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 899 Joined: 23-June 15 From: Central TX Member No.: 18,882 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Yes 74-75 Euro 1.8 had dual single barrel
EDIT info says Webber carbs here: http://www.914world.com/specs/engnumbs.php Solex makes more sense. |
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| 914forme |
Jan 16 2018, 07:57 PM
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#4
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Times a wastin', get wrenchin'! Group: Members Posts: 3,896 Joined: 24-July 04 From: Dayton, Ohio Member No.: 2,388 Region Association: None 
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) not perhaps what you would want to use in a performance minded engine.
Not Webers but Solex 40 PDSIT similar to these.  |
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| GeorgeRud |
Jan 16 2018, 07:57 PM
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#5
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 3,725 Joined: 27-July 05 From: Chicagoland Member No.: 4,482 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
The carbs are shown in the Parts books. I even saw one car in New Hampshire that had them ( back in the 80s) in a local junkyard. Wish I had taken photos!
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| IronHillRestorations |
Jan 16 2018, 08:07 PM
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#6
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I. I. R. C. Group: Members Posts: 6,714 Joined: 18-March 03 From: West TN Member No.: 439 Region Association: None
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It's only an issue if you are losing by 50pst (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Is your engine too far from stock for factory FI? If so, I wonder if you could put together a stock appearing aftermarket FI set up. Can you run a different ignition? |
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| Jetsetsurfshop |
Jan 17 2018, 09:10 AM
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#7
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 814 Joined: 7-April 11 From: Marco Island Florida Member No.: 12,907 Region Association: South East States |
I thought all 914-4 were injected. This is awesome. I can try to use this to fight to get my 100pts back!! maybe at the worst they will only hit me for 50pts because my carbs are not single barrels.
Man guys thanks for the help. Champcar studies my car are because they are not so familiar with 914s. They mostly deal with BMWs and Miata's. Perry, My engine is not stock. Last dyno was 165rwhp. Running a stock appearance FI system would save 100pts and the ignition change would only cost me 20pts. I always like carbs. The system is so simple. I do have a spare stock engine with FI. I wonder if anyone else made a performance FI out of the stock stuff? |
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| krazykonrad |
Jan 17 2018, 12:59 PM
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#8
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,124 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 5,610 |
Not to hijack the thread, but could you give us a couple of links/info on the Champcar Series? Sounds cool, but I've not come across it before.
Thanks, Konrad |
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| jd74914 |
Jan 17 2018, 01:14 PM
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#9
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Its alive Group: Members Posts: 4,776 Joined: 16-February 04 From: CT Member No.: 1,659 Region Association: North East States |
QUOTE(Jetsetsurfshop @ Jan 17 2018, 10:10 AM)  My engine is not stock. Last dyno was 165rwhp. Running a stock appearance FI system would save 100pts and the ignition change would only cost me 20pts. I always like carbs. The system is so simple. I do have a spare stock engine with FI. I wonder if anyone else made a performance FI out of the stock stuff? Does that mean you could get the full 100 pts back if you put a Megasquirt ECU in the stock brain box so it looked OEM-ish (you'd want a newer TPS, MAP, etc.) but used all modern components? |
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| IronHillRestorations |
Jan 17 2018, 01:23 PM
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#10
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I. I. R. C. Group: Members Posts: 6,714 Joined: 18-March 03 From: West TN Member No.: 439 Region Association: None
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The old Haynes manual has photos of the 914 carb set up, if you think that would help.
Years ago I talkeo sd tome racer guys in Cali that increased the displacement and compression, changed to the most radical FI cam they could get, and then added a 2nd fuel pump with the pressure jacked up, and fiddled with the mixture and pressure sensor, just so they could keep the FI. Probably take a fair amount of R&D |
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| Jetsetsurfshop |
Jan 17 2018, 01:54 PM
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#11
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 814 Joined: 7-April 11 From: Marco Island Florida Member No.: 12,907 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(jd74914 @ Jan 17 2018, 11:14 AM) QUOTE(Jetsetsurfshop @ Jan 17 2018, 10:10 AM) My engine is not stock. Last dyno was 165rwhp. Running a stock appearance FI system would save 100pts and the ignition change would only cost me 20pts. I always like carbs. The system is so simple. I do have a spare stock engine with FI. I wonder if anyone else made a performance FI out of the stock stuff? Does that mean you could get the full 100 pts back if you put a Megasquirt ECU in the stock brain box so it looked OEM-ish (you'd want a newer TPS, MAP, etc.) but used all modern components? I think so. Losing 100pts to carbs is a ton. My goal is to keep them and somehow squeeze room for that transmission cooler. I have an email to the director about letting me get some points back. Waiting to hear back now. I will look up that megasquirt thread. I honestly never considered switching. |
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| marksteinhilber |
Jan 17 2018, 02:15 PM
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 229 Joined: 18-October 12 From: Foothill Ranch, CA 92610 Member No.: 15,057 Region Association: Southern California |
Sorry, but ethics alarm is going off in my head. It seems to me that you've lost 100 points because your motor is at 165 rwhp, nowhere near stock. I don't know how doctored up the Miata's and BMWs are, but it would seem the rules should add points for either making specific modifications, OR by adding points based on the amount of hp over stock. PCA does this in their rules for Autocross and uses dyno Hp in a formula that considers power to weight ratio. It seemed fair to me and I had tight competition (tenths of seconds over a mile course) with mostly stock 944s, 356s, and other 914s. 0-250 performance point cars in bottom (slowest) class. PCA also uses the performance point classes to compare drivers of all classes in a handicap system. I was happy to come out in top half with boxsters, 911s and other much higher performance cars under this type of handicapping system.
Hiding Megasquirt in a stock ECU and claiming stock injection when the dyno says 165 rwhp, come on! |
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| Jetsetsurfshop |
Jan 17 2018, 02:23 PM
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#13
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 814 Joined: 7-April 11 From: Marco Island Florida Member No.: 12,907 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(krazykonrad @ Jan 17 2018, 10:59 AM) Not to hijack the thread, but could you give us a couple of links/info on the Champcar Series? Sounds cool, but I've not come across it before. Thanks, Konrad Konrad, Its super fun and I love running down newer cars with my old 914. I believe I have some kind of mental disorder that makes me love this crap. My poor 914. Its had a hit in every event we ran so far. Only once it took us out of the race. Check out their website and forum board. https://champcar.org/ https://forum.champcar.org/ FYI. If your really into trying it they do tracks all over the country and usually you can rent a seat. https://forum.champcar.org/forum/27-putting...the-connection/ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif) |
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| Jetsetsurfshop |
Jan 17 2018, 02:41 PM
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#14
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 814 Joined: 7-April 11 From: Marco Island Florida Member No.: 12,907 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(marksteinhilber @ Jan 17 2018, 12:15 PM) Sorry, but ethics alarm is going off in my head. It seems to me that you've lost 100 points because your motor is at 165 rwhp, nowhere near stock. I don't know how doctored up the Miata's and BMWs are, but it would seem the rules should add points for either making specific modifications, OR by adding points based on the amount of hp over stock. PCA does this in their rules for Autocross and uses dyno Hp in a formula that considers power to weight ratio. It seemed fair to me and I had tight competition (tenths of seconds over a mile course) with mostly stock 944s, 356s, and other 914s. 0-250 performance point cars in bottom (slowest) class. PCA also uses the performance point classes to compare drivers of all classes in a handicap system. I was happy to come out in top half with boxsters, 911s and other much higher performance cars under this type of handicapping system. Hiding Megasquirt in a stock ECU and claiming stock injection when the dyno says 165 rwhp, come on! I was waiting for this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) Champcar has no idea what my car makes or any other car for that matter. I don't claim my car is a 1.7. They know that I'm a B car. (under 2.4 liter) I have nothing to hide. When I do NASA I run in TTC. HP to weight is how I ended up in that class. If Champcar did a HP to weight I'd be stoked! About the Megasquirt...I don't even know what that is!! I'm assuming it some sort of injection. I was going to read about it tonight just to understand what the other posted were talking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) I like the call out!! Hope I explained myself and we were running second in our class right up until the transmission broke. |
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| jd74914 |
Jan 17 2018, 02:42 PM
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#15
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Its alive Group: Members Posts: 4,776 Joined: 16-February 04 From: CT Member No.: 1,659 Region Association: North East States |
QUOTE(Jetsetsurfshop @ Jan 17 2018, 03:41 PM) I was waiting for this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) Champcar has no idea what my car makes or any other car for that matter. I don't claim my car is a 1.7. They know that I'm a B car. (under 2.4 liter) I have nothing to hide. When I do NASA I run in TTC. HP to weight is how I ended up in that class. If Champcar did a HP to weight I'd be stoked! About the Megasquirt...I don't even know what that is!! I'm assuming it some sort of injection. I was going to read about it tonight just to understand what the other posted were talking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) I like the call out!! Hope I explained myself and we were running second in our class right up until the transmission broke. Interesting. That's pretty cool. So since you have an OE engine you get penalized for mods to it, but don't receive points based on hp like you would for an engine swap? Megasquirt is a low cost aftermarket fuel injection system that's rather popular. Tons of threads on it! |
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| Jetsetsurfshop |
Jan 17 2018, 03:47 PM
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#16
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 814 Joined: 7-April 11 From: Marco Island Florida Member No.: 12,907 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(jd74914 @ Jan 17 2018, 12:42 PM) QUOTE(Jetsetsurfshop @ Jan 17 2018, 03:41 PM) I was waiting for this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) Champcar has no idea what my car makes or any other car for that matter. I don't claim my car is a 1.7. They know that I'm a B car. (under 2.4 liter) I have nothing to hide. When I do NASA I run in TTC. HP to weight is how I ended up in that class. If Champcar did a HP to weight I'd be stoked! About the Megasquirt...I don't even know what that is!! I'm assuming it some sort of injection. I was going to read about it tonight just to understand what the other posted were talking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) I like the call out!! Hope I explained myself and we were running second in our class right up until the transmission broke. Interesting. That's pretty cool. So since you have an OE engine you get penalized for mods to it, but don't receive points based on hp like you would for an engine swap? Megasquirt is a low cost aftermarket fuel injection system that's rather popular. Tons of threads on it! They do have a engine swap calculator. Their is a few teams with 914's that have done pretty good with that. I think they are suppose to run a stock form of that engine they swapped in (stock HP). I "chumped" my engine up to compete with the newer cars. Theres also a VW bug out there turning some good laps too. I have a feeling that he's not a 1300 single port! I really just want to prove that an air cooled 914 can be a top ten finisher. I think we had it this year except we had transmission problems again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Next time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) |
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| ablesnead |
Jan 17 2018, 04:02 PM
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 157 Joined: 16-September 13 From: United States Member No.: 16,395 Region Association: None |
Shane Mega squirt is a stand alone ECU...Free NO POINTS......Champ car seems to focus on cost saving points for the competitors versus horsepower equalization....It's so much fun to modify your car without being penalized.... free ecu's free wheel width and diameter take out all the weight you can....flares are fine...only need to keep 40 % of the original body work...don't need a paint job..ect ...classes based on engine size , despite performance potential.....really fun
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| Dave_Darling |
Jan 18 2018, 01:06 PM
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#18
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914 Idiot Group: Members Posts: 14,981 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Silicon Valley / Kailua-Kona Member No.: 121 Region Association: Northern California
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Go to the Porsche website, find Porsche Classic. Hunt around there a bit, and you will find the 914 parts catalog as a downloadable PDF. Get a copy of that, and you can show that the "1.8V" motor used Solex 40 PDSIT carbs.
Hopefully they don't require that the cars with carbs were available in the US, as that was not. You could also point out that the 914-6 ran a pair of triple-throat Webers... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) --DD |
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| SKL1 |
Jan 18 2018, 03:00 PM
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#19
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,597 Joined: 19-February 11 From: north Scottsdale Member No.: 12,732 Region Association: Upper MidWest
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Learn something every day! Having one of these cars for 47+ years I thought I knew most of the trivia... had never heard of factory carbed 4 cylinder engines in 914's, even in Europe!
But Richie Ginther ran carbed 914's in SCCA in the early 70's with Solex 40-P11's because I bought some and ran them on my '71 for a while in the mid 70's. Still have the carbs but have misplaced or lost the manifolds over the years unfortunately. |
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| siverson |
Jan 18 2018, 05:13 PM
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#20
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Advanced Member Group: Benefactors Posts: 2,448 Joined: 5-May 03 From: San Diego, CA Member No.: 654 Region Association: Southern California 
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> Learn something every day! Having one of these cars for 47+ years I thought I knew most of the trivia... had never heard of factory carbed 4 cylinder engines in 914's, even in Europe!
Ditto - me too. Part of my thinks every thread on 914 World has already been written 10 times, and then this comes along. Interesting! (But I've only had 6 over the past 27 years.) -Steve |
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