Home  |  Forums  |  914 Info  |  Blogs
 
914World.com - The fastest growing online 914 community!
 
Porsche, and the Porsche crest are registered trademarks of Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG. This site is not affiliated with Porsche in any way.
Its only purpose is to provide an online forum for car enthusiasts. All other trademarks are property of their respective owners.
 

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V  1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Injector Upgrade, new parts for fuel injection
McMark
post Apr 12 2018, 11:42 AM
Post #1


It's turbo-licious.
***************

Group: Admin
Posts: 20,093
Joined: 13-March 03
From: Grand Rapids, MI
Member No.: 419
Region Association: North East States



I've been working on upgrading the components of my custom fuel injection setup. One of the upgrades I've had in the works for awhile was adapting the newest Bosch injectors. These have an improved spray pattern, are high-impedance, and are available in a variety of spray volumes. And they're TINY!

But like any of this stuff, you can't just bolt them on. I decided to make some fancy adapters that would look mostly original. This was one of my first projects to help teach myself Fusion360 CAD modeling.

Attached Image

Got a couple 3D prints from some of our members, which illustrated a few issues with my design. A few changes were made and I pulled the trigger on an initial run of 20 pieces (5 engines).

Just received these parts back from anodizing and did a final test fit. Everything looks perfect. So it's time to install this and my upgraded AAR on my 1.7 Turbo and see how these new additions help things.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
pete000
post Apr 12 2018, 11:46 AM
Post #2


Senior Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,571
Joined: 23-August 10
From: Rancho Palos Verdes
Member No.: 12,094
Region Association: None



Nice work ! OEM Bosch injectors are getting hard to come by. Your set up would work for the VW Vanagon too !
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
saigon71
post Apr 12 2018, 12:16 PM
Post #3


Senior Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,666
Joined: 1-June 09
From: Dillsburg, PA
Member No.: 10,428
Region Association: MidAtlantic Region



Looks great Mark!

Please continue to keep us posted. Will the upgraded AAR be available as a group buy at some point? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

User is online!Profile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Mueller
post Apr 12 2018, 12:26 PM
Post #4


Back in the game...trying to keep this one stockish!
***************

Group: Members
Posts: 16,486
Joined: 4-January 03
From: Antioch, CA
Member No.: 87
Region Association: None



Looks good. Are those injectors reasonably priced?

I like that design better, easier to make compared to the other one.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DRPHIL914
post Apr 12 2018, 12:31 PM
Post #5


Dr. Phil
****

Group: Members
Posts: 3,475
Joined: 9-December 09
From: Bluffton, SC
Member No.: 11,106
Region Association: South East States



QUOTE(saigon71 @ Apr 12 2018, 02:16 PM) *

Looks great Mark!

Please continue to keep us posted. Will the upgraded AAR be available as a group buy at some point? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

yes keep us posted on that development! also , are the connectors plug and play or is modification of the stock FI connector from the harness required?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
914werke
post Apr 12 2018, 01:30 PM
Post #6


"I got blisters on me fingers"
****

Group: Members
Posts: 4,934
Joined: 22-March 03
From: USofA
Member No.: 453
Region Association: Pacific Northwest



I like it!
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
JeffBowlsby
post Apr 15 2018, 03:33 PM
Post #7


914 Wiring Harnesses
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 6,650
Joined: 7-January 03
From: San Ramon CA
Member No.: 104
Region Association: None



Nice to have an option. I see this new bracket is not indexed to the tine on the manifold. What keeps the injector bracket from rotating around its bolt and moving from side to side?
User is online!Profile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
rick 918-S
post Apr 15 2018, 03:38 PM
Post #8


Hey nice rack! -Celette
***************

Group: Members
Posts: 18,707
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Duluth MN.
Member No.: 43
Region Association: Northstar Region




Want
User is online!Profile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Dave_Darling
post Apr 15 2018, 09:37 PM
Post #9


914 Idiot
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,961
Joined: 9-January 03
From: Silly-con Valley, CA
Member No.: 121
Region Association: Northern California



Is there any reasonable way to have the electrical connector point the same way as the stock injectors?

--DD
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
barefoot
post Apr 16 2018, 05:07 AM
Post #10


Senior Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 641
Joined: 19-March 13
From: Charleston SC
Member No.: 15,673
Region Association: South East States



Nicely done, for your future runs, please add some big fillets between the "sheet metal" part and the cylindrical part, also at the nipple to larger diameter corner, since these are direct metal moulded parts
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
brownaar
post Apr 16 2018, 08:03 AM
Post #11


Member
**

Group: Members
Posts: 257
Joined: 23-September 04
From: Gate City, VA
Member No.: 2,813
Region Association: None



Very nice. My only concern is have you added another potential leak point in the system where the injector mates with the bracket?

Aaron
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
McMark
post Apr 16 2018, 09:30 AM
Post #12


It's turbo-licious.
***************

Group: Admin
Posts: 20,093
Joined: 13-March 03
From: Grand Rapids, MI
Member No.: 419
Region Association: North East States



QUOTE(saigon71 @ Apr 12 2018, 02:16 PM) *
Will the upgraded AAR be available as a group buy at some point? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Yup. As soon as I make sure it works. I'm also pondering some possibilities that would allow my AAR to be installed as a standalone part -- making it applicable to D-Jet and L-Jet cars.

QUOTE(Mueller @ Apr 12 2018, 02:26 PM) *
Looks good. Are those injectors reasonably priced?
I buy mine from DeatshWerks at $260 for 4. But these injectors are on TONS of new cars. So the pick-n-pull available should be HUGE.

QUOTE(Philip W. @ Apr 12 2018, 02:31 PM) *
also , are the connectors plug and play or is modification of the stock FI connector from the harness required?
Adapter plugs could be made available pretty easily.

QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Apr 15 2018, 05:33 PM) *
I see this new bracket is not indexed to the tine on the manifold. What keeps the injector bracket from rotating around its bolt and moving from side to side?
Nothing, I suppose. I'm not sure why they would be moving around. These will use the stock fuel rails as well, so that should provide some additional rigidity to guard against that concern. If I do another run I'll look into adding these tabs. I didn't add them initially because I was concerned about machining costs.

QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Apr 15 2018, 11:37 PM) *
Is there any reasonable way to have the electrical connector point the same way as the stock injectors?
Nope. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) It does rotate freely, so you can put them left/right/down or anywhere in between.

QUOTE(barefoot @ Apr 16 2018, 07:07 AM) *
Nicely done, for your future runs, please add some big fillets between the "sheet metal" part and the cylindrical part, also at the nipple to larger diameter corner, since these are direct metal moulded parts
I'd love to hear more about what you mean. These are CNC machined from aluminum, but you said "direct metal moulded parts" so I thought maybe you meant DLMS/3D-metal-printing. I understand that adding fillets would add strength, but it doesn't seem relevant to this part (no strength necessary). If you're seeing something I'm not, let me know.

QUOTE(brownaar @ Apr 16 2018, 10:03 AM) *
Very nice. My only concern is have you added another potential leak point in the system where the injector mates with the bracket?
Sure. It's an additional potential leak point, but there's not much to be done about this. New injectors are ALL rail mount, so in order to upgrade I had to accept this fact. But it's a potential leak that present in every car that uses a rail-mount injector, which is pretty much every car produced in the last 10+ years. So I'm not doing anything unusual here. Those cars don't have leak problems, so as long as my parts are machined right they shouldn't have a lea problem either.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
JeffBowlsby
post Apr 16 2018, 10:25 AM
Post #13


914 Wiring Harnesses
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 6,650
Joined: 7-January 03
From: San Ramon CA
Member No.: 104
Region Association: None



QUOTE
QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Apr 15 2018, 05:33 PM) *
I see this new bracket is not indexed to the tine on the manifold. What keeps the injector bracket from rotating around its bolt and moving from side to side?
Nothing, I suppose. I'm not sure why they would be moving around. These will use the stock fuel rails as well, so that should provide some additional rigidity to guard against that concern. If I do another run I'll look into adding these tabs. I didn't add them initially because I was concerned about machining costs.


It looks like if the bracket rotates, the injector could come loose so its seals could become loose. The bracket will rotate if its nut becomes loose or otherwise fails to prevent rotation. The OEM fuel rails when installed will not prevent this rotation.

Install an injector as in your photo and loosen the nut. Does the injector tilt when the bracket rotates? If so, the gaskets may not seal against the pressurized fuel.

Believe me, your idea is interesting...if it works. The harness connections actually align better when they lay off to the side like yours do. What are those - Delphi or Weatherpak connectors that would be needed? They could be mounted to an existing harness, not sure about an adapter to a D-Jet/L-Jet harness - seems not to be the best solution.

On the injectors, what are their flow ratings and how well do they substitute for stock injectors?
User is online!Profile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
McMark
post Apr 16 2018, 11:43 AM
Post #14


It's turbo-licious.
***************

Group: Admin
Posts: 20,093
Joined: 13-March 03
From: Grand Rapids, MI
Member No.: 419
Region Association: North East States



QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Apr 16 2018, 12:25 PM) *

QUOTE
QUOTE(Jeff Bowlsby @ Apr 15 2018, 05:33 PM) *
I see this new bracket is not indexed to the tine on the manifold. What keeps the injector bracket from rotating around its bolt and moving from side to side?
Nothing, I suppose. I'm not sure why they would be moving around. These will use the stock fuel rails as well, so that should provide some additional rigidity to guard against that concern. If I do another run I'll look into adding these tabs. I didn't add them initially because I was concerned about machining costs.


It looks like if the bracket rotates, the injector could come loose so its seals could become loose. The bracket will rotate if its nut becomes loose or otherwise fails to prevent rotation. The OEM fuel rails when installed will not prevent this rotation.

Install an injector as in your photo and loosen the nut. Does the injector tilt when the bracket rotates? If so, the gaskets may not seal against the pressurized fuel.

Believe me, your idea is interesting...if it works. The harness connections actually align better when they lay off to the side like yours do. What are those - Delphi or Weatherpak connectors that would be needed? They could be mounted to an existing harness, not sure about an adapter to a D-Jet/L-Jet harness - seems not to be the best solution.

On the injectors, what are their flow ratings and how well do they substitute for stock injectors?

I know what you mean about tilt. I thought about that and I'll be doing some 'forceful' testing of their resistance to leaking. That's paramount. But again, this is how most injectors are installed these days -- and the upper o-ring system is a tight fit. Lots of compression to ensure a tight fit. And Bosch provides machining specifications which were all used in the making of this part. So this isn't a part I completely made up -- it's built to the factory design specs for these injectors.
Attached Image

It's a Delphi connector and if everything works out I plan on offering uncrimped connectors for converting a harness or an adapter plug that will retain the original connectors. Obviously an adapter is less preferable, because of the corrosion issue.

The smallest available from DeatschWerks is 42lb/hr @ 3bar/43psi. Converting those to 2bar/28psi results in 34lb/hr, which is pretty close to stock 2.0 injectors. BUT I'm pulling that stock flow rate from your Injector Substitution thread which doesn't specify the fuel pressure those flow rates are measured at. So if the listings in your thread are already at 3bar, then that changes things. There are other sizes available, including 31 lb/hr @ 3bar. So sizes shouldn't be a problem.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
McMark
post Apr 16 2018, 12:04 PM
Post #15


It's turbo-licious.
***************

Group: Admin
Posts: 20,093
Joined: 13-March 03
From: Grand Rapids, MI
Member No.: 419
Region Association: North East States



I think I need to order some 90-degree elbows...


Attached image(s)
Attached Image Attached Image
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
JeffBowlsby
post Apr 16 2018, 12:18 PM
Post #16


914 Wiring Harnesses
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 6,650
Joined: 7-January 03
From: San Ramon CA
Member No.: 104
Region Association: None



The chart indicates a 300 kPA test pressure for all listed injectors and that = 43 psi, info which came from the reference literature I created the chart from. Based on that the 1.7, 1.8 and 2.0 injectors flow at 18, 26 and 37 lb/hr.

The fuel rails I have seen are stable, brace the injectors to each other and do not allow injector tilt.
User is online!Profile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Dave_Darling
post Apr 16 2018, 12:23 PM
Post #17


914 Idiot
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,961
Joined: 9-January 03
From: Silly-con Valley, CA
Member No.: 121
Region Association: Northern California



QUOTE(McMark @ Apr 16 2018, 11:04 AM) *

I think I need to order some 90-degree elbows...



Or perhaps extend the fitting a bit and have it make a ~75 degree bend?

--DD
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
barefoot
post Apr 16 2018, 01:55 PM
Post #18


Senior Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 641
Joined: 19-March 13
From: Charleston SC
Member No.: 15,673
Region Association: South East States



QUOTE
QUOTE(barefoot @ Apr 16 2018, 07:07 AM) *
Nicely done, for your future runs, please add some big fillets between the "sheet metal" part and the cylindrical part, also at the nipple to larger diameter corner, since these are direct metal moulded parts
I'd love to hear more about what you mean. These are CNC machined from aluminum, but you said "direct metal moulded parts" so I thought maybe you meant DLMS/3D-metal-printing. I understand that adding fillets would add strength, but it doesn't seem relevant to this part (no strength necessary). If you're seeing something I'm not, let me know.


Even though the fuel connection is with a rubber hose, there will be vibration induced to the hose attachment nipple. With a sharp corner where the nipple ends, thats a stress riser with may result in fatigue failure and a big pressurized fuel leak. We always use a large a fillet as possible in aircraft fuel system parts.
I thought you were using direct metal moulding, but CNC machined parts can easily incorporate fillets.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
McMark
post Apr 16 2018, 02:19 PM
Post #19


It's turbo-licious.
***************

Group: Admin
Posts: 20,093
Joined: 13-March 03
From: Grand Rapids, MI
Member No.: 419
Region Association: North East States



QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Apr 16 2018, 02:23 PM) *
QUOTE(McMark @ Apr 16 2018, 11:04 AM) *
I think I need to order some 90-degree elbows...
Or perhaps extend the fitting a bit and have it make a ~75 degree bend?

--DD
The problem there is that the 1.7 an 2.0 runners have the fittings at different angles. So any angle I build in will make two versions necessary. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pinch.gif)

This was what I settled on as the best solution to that issue.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
McMark
post Apr 16 2018, 02:20 PM
Post #20


It's turbo-licious.
***************

Group: Admin
Posts: 20,093
Joined: 13-March 03
From: Grand Rapids, MI
Member No.: 419
Region Association: North East States



QUOTE(barefoot @ Apr 16 2018, 03:55 PM) *

QUOTE
QUOTE(barefoot @ Apr 16 2018, 07:07 AM) *
Nicely done, for your future runs, please add some big fillets between the "sheet metal" part and the cylindrical part, also at the nipple to larger diameter corner, since these are direct metal moulded parts
I'd love to hear more about what you mean. These are CNC machined from aluminum, but you said "direct metal moulded parts" so I thought maybe you meant DLMS/3D-metal-printing. I understand that adding fillets would add strength, but it doesn't seem relevant to this part (no strength necessary). If you're seeing something I'm not, let me know.


Even though the fuel connection is with a rubber hose, there will be vibration induced to the hose attachment nipple. With a sharp corner where the nipple ends, thats a stress riser with may result in fatigue failure and a big pressurized fuel leak. We always use a large a fillet as possible in aircraft fuel system parts.
I thought you were using direct metal moulding, but CNC machined parts can easily incorporate fillets.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif) I can see where that would be helpful on the nipple.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



- Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 11th December 2018 - 07:48 PM