how vital is this whole shimming the, flywheel thing? Options

[xsboost90]

talking to the guy i bought the motor from the other day, and he asked how many shims i had to put in the flywheel. I said..." shims?". When i bolted and torqued it 80lbs, i didnt see anything about no shims! Engine seemed to turn over by hand, alittle stiff, but turned over none the less. Could i be hurting it running w/ too much tension or something? Im planning on taking the trans back out for some parts replacement, i guess ill mic it then and check, but if its too tight could it toast the motor i guess? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif)

[ThinAir]

I'm not sure why it is critical that you use 3 shims, but I know that this is the number that is specified for the engine and every engine builder that I know of makes a big deal out of making sure you have 3, not 2.

You definitely need shims because this is how you set the end play for the crankshaft. It should have .004 ( I think - don't trust this number) of end play on a Type IV. If you don't have a dial indicator gauge, I'd load the engine up and take it to your mechanic so he can measure the end play and get you the combination of 3 shims that will give you the proper end play.

You DO NOT want to get this wrong as it will lead to massive oil leaks at the flywheel seal and failure of your engine!

This post has been edited by ThinAir914: Jun 7 2005, 11:35 AM

[North Bay 914]

It is how the endplay on the Type 4 is set...Important is a good word here. Here is how from an on-line article. They may be there and you just didn't notice them.


Install only 2 of the three end play shims. If you do not reset the end play, you will destroy the engine as the crankshaft will move either excessively or not enough. Temporarily install the flywheel using the old crush plate. Torque the bolts to 80lbs. Reinstall the flywheel lock to prevent movement. Attach the dial indicator to the transmission shroud and measure the movement of the crankshaft, front to rear by pulling and pushing the flywheel. The desired play is 0.07 - 0.15mm. Take the end play measurement and subtract 0.07mm. This amount will be the desired thickness of the third shim. You may have to mis and match several shims to accommodate the desired dimension, but install no more than three.

[street legal go-kart]

Do not run your engine until you have verified that the end play is correct.
You can break your crank and/or you can sieze the engine.
I didnt get the end play correct on the first type one engine I built back in prehistoric times and it cost me dearly.
Pull your engine and set the play before drivivng your car.

Good Luck,

JT

[jasons]

3 Shims is spec'd by VW. Don't know why its 3, I would guess it has to do with the properties of the metal they are made of. Like 3 will stay that thickness more consistently than 1 or 2. Maybe if you use 1 or 2 shims, the thrust will cause it to "thin" over time. But thats just a theory.

You definitely need to have those.

[Joe Bob]

The shim count is three...not one, two or four, the count will be three sayeth the Lord, the number preceeding four, the number be three.....unless ya wanna be the Exxon Valdez.... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

Badly paraphrasing Monty Python....

[tat2dphreak]

you have me worried, I don't remember shims, taking them off or putting them back on the new engine... do they come with the pelican kit? how can I be sure they are there and end-play is right?

[xsboost90]

according to everyone i talk to , you have to use a dial indiactor that measures endplay. Then shim accordingly, preferrably using three shims that make up the difference. I think mine already had some shims in there, the endplay felt fine by hand-used to american muscle rebuilds- and put it together. Im going to tear into it this weekend maybe, check tolerances, install new bolts, shim, lock, clutch disk and see what i got again. should be between .07 and .015mm endplay.

[Elliot_Cannon]

It's been a looong time since I did this but I remember not being able to afford a dial indicator and used a feeler gauge instead. I can't remember the procedure but I rigged something up by bolting a wrench to the case in front of the flywheel and measuring the gap between the wrench and the flywheel. I tapped the crank with a mallet to move it toward the wrench, measured the gap, then tapped with the mallet away from the wrench and measured the gap again. I wish I could explain it better and it took awhile to do this but it worked. The engine lasted another 100,000 miles. What I do know for sure is this be pretty important to do correctly.
Cheers, Elliot

[Allan]

I went through that headache awhile back. Check this thread.

[jhadler]

Get a dial indicator!! Measure the endplay! And use those shims (yup, three is the number, something to do with getting oil in there or something...).

No enough endplay (too tight) will burn up the bearing. Which will lead to too much endplay, and then your crank will go -boom-. Yup, Been There Done That. -ouch- A number of years ago I had replaced the flywheel and reset the endplay. I needed to use the three thickest shims I could get to set it right. That -should- have told me something at the time... 8 months later... . The bearing was already dying, and shimming it to the limit like I did was only a band-aid...

-Josh2

[tat2dphreak]

can someone take a picture of the "shims" so maybe it will jar my memory? I know I didn't use a dial indicator, but I may have put the shims back on when I installed the flywheel/clutch job, and put the engine back...

[DNHunt]

Wayne

Here's a picture of 3 shims out of an old engine. Don't reuse them, they get cupped. As you can see these are pretty beat up. Wilson's book says 0045-0065". Jake had me set mine at 0055" or above. He liked to run his a little loose.

Dave

[DNHunt]

Here's a pic of my son checking end play

[DNHunt]

Here's how we set it up.

[tat2dphreak]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif)

yea I was afraid of that... I didn't use any... I've only ran the engine for a little bit, and not under any load(on jackstands only) ... so hopefully it's ok... one more thing to do before running it... damn!

oh well, it will give me an excuse to pull the engine and run new fuel lines for good measure...


anything else?

where can I get a dial indicator that won't kill my pocketbook? do I need to replace the flywheel blots, crush washer and all those other things I changed last year when I installed the engine? I'm glad this was caught now... and don't want to F something else up...

[Allan]

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ Jun 8 2005, 07:02 AM)

where can I get a dial indicator that won't kill my pocketbook?

Harbor Freight. I think mine was under $20.00 plus the magnetic base which was around $10-15 bucks.

[tat2dphreak]

QUOTE (Headrage @ Jun 8 2005, 09:08 AM)

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ Jun 8 2005, 07:02 AM) where can I get a dial indicator that won't kill my pocketbook? Harbor Freight. I think mine was under $20.00 plus the magnetic base which was around $10-15 bucks.

cool, just ask them for a dial indicator? or is there a specific kind? this is a new one for me... sorry if the questions are dumb (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif)

also, where can you get new shims? I don't see them on pelican, but I'm probably just not looking in the right place...

[DNHunt]

Wayne

I got mine at a local VW store. Ask for type 4 shims. I would bet Jake has them at his store.

Dave

[tat2dphreak]

QUOTE (DNHunt @ Jun 8 2005, 09:22 AM)

Wayne I got mine at a local VW store. Ask for type 4 shims. I would bet Jake has them at his store. Dave

Jake has them...

no *real* local VW place anymore... it would cost more in gas than the parts to drive over and get them... I'll get a dial at HF this week and order the shims today from Jake... and maybe do it this weekend... or next.

new bolts, crush washer, etc?