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> Ideas On Auxiliary Heating Systems, Using Headers but Want Heat!
MikeInMunich
post Apr 20 2018, 12:15 AM
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Greetings once again from Munich!

It’s cold over here when the sun goes down, not to mention nice days in March, April, October and November. I need heat, and I don’t have it because my engine has headers.

I am thinking I will need a high output alternator if I’m using only 12v in order to get the necessary output.

Is this somehow a bad idea? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Questions:

How would a e.g. 50 amp alternator affect power and gas mileage?

Would it have any effect on the electrical system?

Can you recommend a heater for this application?

Other suggestions on how to best get heat into the cabin without heat exchangers?

Here is an article on PTC (positive thermal coefficient) heaters...

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.10...-11628-5_51.pdf

Thanks for your feedback and advice!

Mike in Munich
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dansvan
post Apr 20 2018, 12:49 AM
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Gas powered Webasto or Espar?
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MikeInMunich
post Apr 20 2018, 01:31 AM
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QUOTE(dansvan @ Apr 19 2018, 10:49 PM) *

Gas powered Webasto or Espar?


Yes, good options. Would be mounted in front trunk, with exhaust going through wheel well. And the heat? Suggestions on how / where to best duct it into the cabin? ALL of my front ventilation system is currently not present.

Any thoughts on my other questions?
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sb914
post Apr 20 2018, 05:57 AM
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Heated seats !
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Cairo94507
post Apr 20 2018, 06:24 AM
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Heated seats and Ben's heat exchangers.
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mepstein
post Apr 20 2018, 06:30 AM
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Every year guys talk about the gas fired heaters but I’ve never seen one installed in a 914, just the same picture of one. Heated seats are your easiest option. The best option is to install ss heat exchangers. The huge comfort they provide on even the coldest days more than offsets the couple hp you might loose. It’s a stock system so parts are available and it bolts right in. No brainer if you want a very comfortable car in the winter.
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Mark Henry
post Apr 20 2018, 07:13 AM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Apr 20 2018, 08:30 AM) *

Every year guys talk about the gas fired heaters but I’ve never seen one installed in a 914, just the same picture of one. Heated seats are your easiest option. The best option is to install ss heat exchangers. The huge comfort they provide on even the coldest days more than offsets the couple hp you might loose. It’s a stock system so parts are available and it bolts right in. No brainer if you want a very comfortable car in the winter.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Gas heater, good solution, I believe no one has installed one because they don't want to cut holes in their cars.

12v way too much load for way too little heat. Heated seats work OK, only viable 12v solution.

Heat exchangers, still the best solution.
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porschetub
post Apr 20 2018, 05:14 PM
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Played with electric,didn't spend a lot (luckily),total waste of time,too much current draw as mentioned ,I use heater fan set on full speed for demist and have deleted heater control,works good enough .
Not really that cold here but would be different in Germany.
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dansvan
post Apr 20 2018, 05:28 PM
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The webasto and espar units while not cheap, fit inside a small shoebox, the exhaust tube is an inch in diameter at most, and could be easily ducted into the system.


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98101
post Apr 21 2018, 01:10 AM
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I'm in a similar situation. Thinking about this option next winter if I'm feeling like spending a lot of money by then:
http://www.tangerineracing.com/914headers.htm
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MikeInMunich
post Apr 21 2018, 01:24 AM
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QUOTE(porschetub @ Apr 20 2018, 03:14 PM) *

Played with electric,didn't spend a lot (luckily),total waste of time,too much current draw as mentioned ,I use heater fan set on full speed for demist and have deleted heater control,works good enough .
Not really that cold here but would be different in Germany.


I was thinking about using a high output alternator for this purpose and taking the power straight from that. Honestly don’t know much about the feasibility of this possibility. Still waiting for comments on THIS in particular. Aren’t there 12v heaters out there that need about 50 amps to put out about 10,000 btu / 3000 w or similar? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
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Mark Henry
post Apr 21 2018, 06:36 AM
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QUOTE(MikeInMunich @ Apr 21 2018, 03:24 AM) *

QUOTE(porschetub @ Apr 20 2018, 03:14 PM) *

Played with electric,didn't spend a lot (luckily),total waste of time,too much current draw as mentioned ,I use heater fan set on full speed for demist and have deleted heater control,works good enough .
Not really that cold here but would be different in Germany.


I was thinking about using a high output alternator for this purpose and taking the power straight from that. Honestly don’t know much about the feasibility of this possibility. Still waiting for comments on THIS in particular. Aren’t there 12v heaters out there that need about 50 amps to put out about 10,000 btu / 3000 w or similar? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)


Your money go ahead, but VW guys have been chasing this for 60+ years with poor results.
Even big modern alternators can only handle around max 800 watts.

There was a guy last year that bought a $200 espar china copy diesel kit from evilbay, did he ever install it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
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Luke M
post Apr 21 2018, 07:25 AM
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What are the water cooled conv. guys running?
Wonder if there's a way to install a heater core and warm the coolant somehow?
Maybe plumb hot oil from front cooler through heater core then to cooler?
Most oil coolers run 180 degrees or so which should be plenty to heat a 914 cab.
Just brain storming and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking about this.



Found this setup on Jegs :

https://www.jegs.com/i/VPA/960/11301-VUX-A/...ECABEgKmpvD_BwE
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jim_hoyland
post Apr 21 2018, 07:35 AM
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Warmer clothes ? Layer up... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)
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Luke M
post Apr 21 2018, 07:43 AM
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QUOTE(jim_hoyland @ Apr 21 2018, 06:35 AM) *

Warmer clothes ? Layer up... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)



Lol.. maybe in sunny CA but not up here in the NE.
It's April 21 st and temps are still in the 40's here.

I plan on heated seats for my 6 as I'm running headers. If I need heat or a/c I'll drive the Audi.






























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Mark Henry
post Apr 21 2018, 08:05 AM
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Oil isn't the greatest for heat transfer, you have to run a thermostat, the engine needs to be warm first (180F). By the time you are getting noticeable heat you are already at your destination.

Again bug guys have BTDT, it works to a certain extent but it's poor a result for the effort. To get enough usable heat the oil heat kits of the 70's-80's recirculated cabin heat, which causes fogging/moisture issues.

BTW I know someone is going to say "but my oil cooler puts out bitchin heat"... when it's 70F+ outside of course it does. Try the temps at closer to the freezing point with a thermostat and forced air over the cooler.
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GeorgeRud
post Apr 21 2018, 12:02 PM
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I was also searching for heat options for my 914-6 conversion when it was running headers. I even bought a used Eberspacher gas fired heater to install, but ended up finding some factory heat exchangers that I had ceramic coated and installed instead (Ben’s heat exchangers weren’t available then). Though the gas fired heaters put out tons of heat for such a small compartment, I think using Ben’s heat exchangers (or some SSI for a four) will end up being the easiest and most workable solution.
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Dave_Darling
post Apr 21 2018, 12:33 PM
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If you're handy at fabrication, you may be able to make some heat exchanger wrapping for your header pipes. As we've seen from Tangerine's similar setup, the output isn't huge amounts of heat, but it's more than good enough to clear your windscreen. And it will be available quickly, unlike heat coming from water-based coolant.

Mueller looked into wrapping tubing around header pipes and pushing glycol through there with an electric pump, but consensus was a lot of work for relatively little benefit. You'd need to wrap the outside of the wrapped pipe with something like header wrap to keep the glycol from cooling off too quickly, and insulate it until it got where you wanted the heat.

Any way you go, you'll need to put some air distribution stuff back into the car. The stock stuff is easy and is known to fit, but you can fake up stuff if you're creative.

--DD
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SirAndy
post Apr 21 2018, 08:53 PM
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QUOTE(dansvan @ Apr 19 2018, 11:49 PM) *
Gas powered Webasto or Espar?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=8825

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porschetub
post Apr 22 2018, 02:56 AM
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I researched this extensively for my car...not that I really will need it.
Small motorhome diesel powered unit would be a possibility and would only require a very small fuel tank as these units are efficient ,I haven't really checked these out fully however.
My early tests involved using my A/C in my late model Audi to demist and then the ambient cool air ,both worked....I won't move ice/frost from the screen but that's not an issue for me,my setup directs all the air from the airbox fan to my screen with the option to feed air out the kneepad vents in the summer.
No real easy answers really without heat-exchangers.
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