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> 3.6 higher mileage motor on Pelican FS, sign of the times or just overpriced ???
mepstein
post May 16 2018, 06:20 PM
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I think we can all agree that the air cooled engines aren’t going down in price.
Unfortunately, I don’t think the manufacture of new cases will reduce the price of these engines.
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sithot
post May 16 2018, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE(r_towle @ May 16 2018, 07:14 PM) *

Why not just build a big /4 motor?
Should be a better investment .

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Agree. A friend had a 2.8 FAT in his 914 that wore out just about anything that got in his way at auto crosses culminating in an FTD at the Porsche Parade in 2008. It had as much torque as horsepower. Combined with a short gear box it was a potent combination.

I reckon the 3.6 dressed is close to 500# whereas the IV is around 300#.
Alois Ruf states in this video: Pick up at 5:40.

"There is no compensation for extra weight."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfYHCbyo6CE
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ConeDodger
post May 16 2018, 11:56 PM
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QUOTE(sithot @ May 16 2018, 09:57 PM) *

QUOTE(r_towle @ May 16 2018, 07:14 PM) *

Why not just build a big /4 motor?
Should be a better investment .

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Agree. A friend had a 2.8 FAT in his 914 that wore out just about anything that got in his way at auto crosses culminating in an FTD at the Porsche Parade in 2008. It had as much torque as horsepower. Combined with a short gear box it was a potent combination.

I reckon the 3.6 dressed is close to 500# whereas the IV is around 300#.
Alois Ruf states in this video: Pick up at 5:40.

"There is no compensation for extra weight."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfYHCbyo6CE


I think r_towle might have been being facetious... a type IV with as much HP and torque as a 3.6 would be a grenade quite literally.

I’ve had two 200+ HP & torque Type IV motors. One blew up on me, the second blew up on the guy who bought it from me. They were well engineered, they were installed correctly. Somewhere around here there are pictures of the first one with a hole in the case top, still running with a rod flopping up and down. They don’t last.

Congratulations BTW, you managed to turn this into a 6 vs: 4 debate. Pretty much rule number 3 around here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)
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r_towle
post May 17 2018, 12:35 AM
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I love it when a plan comes together.
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phillstek
post May 17 2018, 01:15 AM
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Paid $4k for a complete running 3.0 from a guy in Santa Clarita in 2011. Traded it in for $8k and got a 3.2 for $11k in 2013. 3.2 needed valve guides soon after installation. Did a top end rebuild on it and added new p&cs at an all up cost of 12.5k. Swapped a trailer for another 3.2 which I was going to build into a 3.8 screamer but then decided that was crazy after finding that it would cost upwards of 30k to do. I sold that engine to a mate for 15k. That was in 2016. Also sold a 2.2T that needed a full rebuild around the same time for 6k that had no fan or housing.

Agree with others that if you want an air cooled 6 you'd better jump when you see one as these engines are not going to get cheaper.
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Mark Henry
post May 17 2018, 06:37 AM
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My 3.0 $2K core, full rebuild, twinplug, new high CR mahle pistons with replated cylinders, cams, webers, etc , with labour would have been about a $25K build 4-5 years ago.
I'm guessing worth almost $10k more today.

I have a 2.7 core that I couldn't sell for $1000 back then and it wasn't worth building. Now it's not for sale and one day I'll go at it as a spec engine.

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sithot
post May 17 2018, 06:54 AM
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QUOTE(ConeDodger @ May 17 2018, 01:56 AM) *


Congratulations BTW, you managed to turn this into a 6 vs: 4 debate. Pretty much rule number 3 around here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)


I think the crux of the thread is whether these 6's are good deals.

I won't pay $15-$20K for an unknown lump.

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Mark Henry
post May 17 2018, 07:34 AM
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QUOTE(sithot @ May 17 2018, 08:54 AM) *

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ May 17 2018, 01:56 AM) *


Congratulations BTW, you managed to turn this into a 6 vs: 4 debate. Pretty much rule number 3 around here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)


I think the crux of the thread is whether these 6's are good deals.

I won't pay $15-$20K for an unknown lump.


I agree, for that price I'd want a PPI, leak down, hear it running, etc.
But at the same time there's a 993 vram 90k miles, with DME and harness asking $22K.
Also a sorted low mile 3.0 for $10K, so the price is the sign of the times.

Thing with Porsche prices is they only made so many, you have all kinds of guys coming into inheritances or did well and a hot Porsche has always been their dream. The same thing is happening with the 914 prices.

As far as the debate a 180hp /4 is going run you around $10k+ done right. More once you count intake/exhaust, labour... you can easily get towards $20K on a nickies build.

Sucks for the budget/frugal Porsche owners, but it is what it is. We had a good run but those times are all but over.
No more poor man's Porsche, only a Porsche that made a man poor.
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aggiezig
post May 17 2018, 07:50 AM
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QUOTE(Mark Henry @ May 17 2018, 08:34 AM) *

No more poor man's Porsche, only a Porsche that made a man poor.


Cue the 944... Not air cooled, but another NARP in some eyes.
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sithot
post May 17 2018, 07:54 AM
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QUOTE(Mark Henry @ May 17 2018, 09:34 AM) *

No more poor man's Porsche, only a Porsche that made a man poor.


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
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Rav914
post May 17 2018, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE(Mark Henry @ May 17 2018, 06:34 AM) *


Sucks for the budget/frugal Porsche owners, but it is what it is. We had a good run but those times are all but over.



Yeah it kinda does suck for the frugal guy and enthusiast. I enjoyed early 911's when they were cheap, old Porsches. I lived through watching my cars get stupid expensive (alas, I sold early). To me, it went from being an eccentric hobby into a dick measuring contest.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against money. I love money. The more the merrier. That's the upside. Money will be spent. People who make a living in restoration and other services will continue to do so. And I'm glad for them.

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sithot
post May 17 2018, 10:12 AM
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QUOTE(Rav914 @ May 17 2018, 11:48 AM) *

QUOTE(Mark Henry @ May 17 2018, 06:34 AM) *


Sucks for the budget/frugal Porsche owners, but it is what it is. We had a good run but those times are all but over.



To me, it went from being an eccentric hobby into a dick measuring contest.



Alas, the truth. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
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Cupomeat
post May 17 2018, 08:38 PM
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QUOTE(sithot @ May 16 2018, 09:08 AM) *

At a minimum it will need exhaust guides and a reseal.
Porsche used a *rare part on these cars which I've heard referred to as the "extra wear exhaust guide cover" (engine tray).


*Rare because few have survived (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)
I have one of those RARE parts from my 993 C4... sitting in the garage and been off when I bought it in 2007. Must be worth at least 1/4 the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) engine cost...
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ConeDodger
post May 17 2018, 10:23 PM
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QUOTE(r_towle @ May 17 2018, 03:35 AM) *

I love it when a plan comes together.


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)
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Unobtanium-inc
post May 18 2018, 06:50 PM
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I see a lot of big asks in terms of prices for motors, but actually selling one is a different story. We bought several truckloads of cars from one guy several years ago, one car was a 72 911 Targa with a 930 3.3 motor shoved into it. The car was running and driving but the engine was going to need a top end. Everyone said, "That motor is worth $25,000 all day long."
I wasn't sure, it's a lot newer than the stuff I normally deal in. I put it on ebay and it sat, and sat, eventually selling for $14,500.
Like I said, people ask a lot, but I find it more interesting to see what stuff actually sells for.

You can see a video here of the car driving.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anc92Z3_WeU



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somd914
post May 19 2018, 07:48 AM
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I see a lot of high asking prices, and I see a lot of sixes being sold quickly... But I also see some sitting for quite a while...

No matter what they are really selling for, prices for engines and 911's are up, and to me it seems engine prices have gone up faster than car prices. It's hard to fathom that my 3.2 is 30-35% of the value of my 911 Carrera which is no concourse car but clean and well maintained.

My son recently bought an '82 SC with a 3.2 swap that underwent a top and bottom end rebuild, about 15k miles on the engine. In his case we figured buying a 3.2 and having it rebuilt would be about 70% the selling price of his car.
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mepstein
post May 19 2018, 07:48 AM
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An older turbo engine really only appeals to a guy who needs it for his old turbo chassis. It’s an expensive engine to rebuild and not nearly as much fun as a strong 3.6.
We’ve pulled a couple out of guys cars so they can run a 3.6/3.8 and a 5 speed 915, then mothballed the oem parts.
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horizontally-opposed
post May 19 2018, 12:19 PM
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Sign of the times, at some level—though it's probably useful to put today's (selling) prices into 2008, 1998, 1988, etc dollars to take the inflationary aspect out of it.

The 1997 Boxster was $39,980 when it debuted, which is $62,908~ in 2018 dollars.
The 2018 Boxster is $59,000 right now, which is $37,497~ in late 1996 dollars.

This engine's price, at $15,000 today, is $9,749~ in 1998 dollars and $12,834 in 2008 dollars. So...inflation + sign of the times. They aren't making more of these, and it isn't fun to see the engines become more precious. On the flip side, a lot of cars that would have been parted in the past are now being saved...and that is cool.
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Beach914
post May 19 2018, 02:51 PM
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82 3.2 motor with a top end rebuild for sale on LA Craigslist for $18k.
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forrestkhaag
post May 19 2018, 05:01 PM
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I can tell you from recent experience that full 3.0 rebuild including new valves, guides, springs, cam sprockets, one-piece chains, Carrera tensioners, all new gaskets, nuts & bolts, not including head studs cost me around 6K all in / most parts from Pelican.

My 3.0 core was 1K including everything but the shroud and the on-engine oil cooler. The core was well represented as a rebuildable core in need of valve guides or a top end freshening up. I went nuts for the fun of it and I took it down to every nut and bolt and carefully followed the book-advise on how to disassemble a 911 engine to prep for a rebuild.

The Vasek Polak trained mechanic in LA that guided me thru the rebuild process charged me a flat rate of 1000 bucks to make sure I didn't screw up anything. He was good for his word / he did not let me screw up anything. He also paid very careful attention to refitting things that needed to be in their original engine layout - back in their correct original place / His explanation was very detailed but simply put, engine things in race applications cause minute and separate wear and stress on every part in a 911 engine at one time or another. Put it back the way the factory assembled it, and it will go 400,000 miles before one needs to think about a "freshening up"... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

He had a tank for the cleaning of the case halves etc. Everything was surgically cleaned then recleaned. We spent four two-hour sessions in his shop in the worse part of the nations worst city and survived to tell the story. once finished and the KEP Stage II clutch and flywheel was bolted up, 914Toy and I bolted the mill up to a Rich Johnson mount and throttle linkage that I installed in the car after shaving off the 4-mount tabs in engine bay.

The engine screams and is a well sealed, no leaker that just want to be run long and hard. And I do that almost daily for the fun of it.

Some of these cost quotes seem crazy to me but I am a simple man of simple means and cant afford or justify craziness in this car thing.

Sidebar: Speaking of crazy.... and looking, what should I expect to pay for a set of four decent 7x15 Fuch's wheels in useful condition (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) .............



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