Seam welding and chassis stiffening, how far to go for the street? Options

[amfab]

I have been reading a lot of threads on the topic, but most of them are referenced around racing or AX. This will not be a racecar, or even a flared car.

As I have mentioned before, my minor rust fix has turned into a full restoration and six conversion. I am currently welding up a chassis cart/jig that will mount on a rotisserie.

The car will be a 3.2 stock with about 210HP—maybe some mods in the distant future, but probably never more than 250HP.
I will be running 6x15 Fuchs with 205s. No AX, no track, just spirited driving on crappy LA roads and I want the car to last a long time.

While I am repairing rust and replacing pans and firewall, I am doing some reinforcement:

1-While I was patching longs I put another layer of 18ga on the inner long on the inside from the door pillar into where the long angles up and gets double layer (about the seatbelt bolt) I wanted a little more beef around the e-brake recess and center of the longs.

2-I will install a Brad Mayeur Kit on the outside of the longs

3-I have the rear (firewall) piece of an Engman kit I will install (Im not doing the full kit because I feel the extra layer inside the long and the Mayeur kit are enough)

The additional reinforcement I was thinking of doing:
Tangerine Rear trailing arm reinforcement
Tangerine Rear Suspensions Inner Console Reinforcements
Tangerine Rear Pickup Points Reinforcing Kit
Maddog front Sway bar reinforcement in the front wheel wells

My questions are:
For my application with the Brad Mayeur Kit, do I need the full Tangerine kit with the Heim braces or is this overkill?
I do not want to seam weld the entire car, but are there some spots that would be helpful for my application? It will be on the rotisserie, so it will not be terribly hard.

I am not doing the GT reinforcement kit, the Brad Mayeur kit is the only place I am willing to add a lot of weight (I am offsetting this with a fiberglass hood and trunk.)

Anything else that is reasonable reinforcement-wise? I just want a car that will handle the 3.2 power in a street environment and last a long time

Thanks in advance

-Andrew

[Chip]

I have been reading a lot of threads on the topic, but most of them are referenced around racing or AX. This will not be a racecar, or even a flared car.

As I have mentioned before, my minor rust fix has turned into a full restoration and six conversion. I am currently welding up a chassis cart/jig that will mount on a rotisserie.

The car will be a 3.2 stock with about 210HP—maybe some mods in the distant future, but probably never more than 250HP.
I will be running 6x15 Fuchs with 205s. No AX, no track, just spirited driving on crappy LA roads and I want the car to last a long time.

While I am repairing rust and replacing pans and firewall, I am doing some reinforcement:

1-While I was patching longs I put another layer of 18ga on the inner long on the inside from the door pillar into where the long angles up and gets double layer (about the seatbelt bolt) I wanted a little more beef around the e-brake recess and center of the longs.


Save your money and move to SE Idaho.

2-I will install a Brad Mayeur Kit on the outside of the longs

3-I have the rear (firewall) piece of an Engman kit I will install (Im not doing the full kit because I feel the extra layer inside the long and the Mayeur kit are enough)

The additional reinforcement I was thinking of doing:
Tangerine Rear trailing arm reinforcement
Tangerine Rear Suspensions Inner Console Reinforcements
Tangerine Rear Pickup Points Reinforcing Kit
Maddog front Sway bar reinforcement in the front wheel wells

My questions are:
For my application with the Brad Mayeur Kit, do I need the full Tangerine kit with the Heim braces or is this overkill?
I do not want to seam weld the entire car, but are there some spots that would be helpful for my application? It will be on the rotisserie, so it will not be terribly hard.

I am not doing the GT reinforcement kit, the Brad Mayeur kit is the only place I am willing to add a lot of weight (I am offsetting this with a fiberglass hood and trunk.)

Anything else that is reasonable reinforcement-wise? I just want a car that will handle the 3.2 power in a street environment and last a long time

Thanks in advance

-Andrew

[marksteinhilber]

I have been reading a lot of threads on the topic, but most of them are referenced around racing or AX. This will not be a racecar, or even a flared car.

As I have mentioned before, my minor rust fix has turned into a full restoration and six conversion. I am currently welding up a chassis cart/jig that will mount on a rotisserie.

The car will be a 3.2 stock with about 210HP—maybe some mods in the distant future, but probably never more than 250HP.
I will be running 6x15 Fuchs with 205s. No AX, no track, just spirited driving on crappy LA roads and I want the car to last a long time.

While I am repairing rust and replacing pans and firewall, I am doing some reinforcement:

1-While I was patching longs I put another layer of 18ga on the inner long on the inside from the door pillar into where the long angles up and gets double layer (about the seatbelt bolt) I wanted a little more beef around the e-brake recess and center of the longs.

2-I will install a Brad Mayeur Kit on the outside of the longs

3-I have the rear (firewall) piece of an Engman kit I will install (Im not doing the full kit because I feel the extra layer inside the long and the Mayeur kit are enough)

The additional reinforcement I was thinking of doing:
Tangerine Rear trailing arm reinforcement
Tangerine Rear Suspensions Inner Console Reinforcements
Tangerine Rear Pickup Points Reinforcing Kit
Maddog front Sway bar reinforcement in the front wheel wells

My questions are:
For my application with the Brad Mayeur Kit, do I need the full Tangerine kit with the Heim braces or is this overkill?
I do not want to seam weld the entire car, but are there some spots that would be helpful for my application? It will be on the rotisserie, so it will not be terribly hard.

I am not doing the GT reinforcement kit, the Brad Mayeur kit is the only place I am willing to add a lot of weight (I am offsetting this with a fiberglass hood and trunk.)

Anything else that is reasonable reinforcement-wise? I just want a car that will handle the 3.2 power in a street environment and last a long time

Thanks in advance

-Andrew

Heim kit is overkill for the street with stockish hp. but since you are adding a 3.2 six, you should do all the welded upgrades that you like. the tangerine or Patrick MS heim kit for the console looks like they will help adjust and lock rear suspension settings and particularly toe. The trailing arms may flex some too, so consider stiffening those too.

You don't need to seam weld everything if you have enough plug welds to transfer 40-50% of any load to the new skins. Seam welding may help prevent moisture penetration and long term rusting. Applying rust prevention measures like internal frame coatings, POR 15, and seam sealer may also be important unless the car will always be garaged and not driven in the rain. (LA probable) New Optima batteries remove the rust problem, so it can stay in the stock location.

While your in there, replace the rear trunk hinges with the JWest heim joints that are fully adjustable to perfect your gaps, and consider the gas lift trunk shocks sized for the weight of the glass lid(s). Camp914 has a nice set-up already figured out at $50.

914rubber has most everything you may need that wears or drys out including kits for interior. Good luck and hope to see you at nearby events!

[Andyrew]

I think your at the diminishing returns part now.

Your power level doesnt require any additional stiffening. Your tires dont require it. Your not tracking it.

So your not going to feel any additional stiffening on the road and not going to get any benefit out of any of the pieces you have listed except for doing trailing arm ear reinforcement which is due to weak metal from the factory and rust. This is a great while your in there project and the only thing you havent already dont that I would do.

[burton73]

Hi Andrew,

If you want to come over to my shop I can go over all the elements that you are thinking of as a number of them are done on my 74 930 trans V8car that is on the rotisserie. I did mods to Brads kit in the way of drilling extra holes so it could be plug welded in addition to the places that brad said to weld to. My car has no rust (or I cannot see any) and I wanted over kill to make sure that I could not twist it with 400 Ft Lbs. of high torque Eng. I have helms as well. Only one is finished welded in. I can show you how I did that.

Best regards,

Bob B
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

[Larmo63]

I welded in the console-to-firewall heim joint struts just because I was in there doing the motor mounts and a dinky rust repair.

Peace of mind.

[Mueller]

I think your at the diminishing returns part now.

Your power level doesnt require any additional stiffening. Your tires dont require it. Your not tracking it.

So your not going to feel any additional stiffening on the road and not going to get any benefit out of any of the pieces you have listed except for doing trailing arm ear reinforcement which is due to weak metal from the factory and rust. This is a great while your in there project and the only thing you havent already dont that I would do.

I don't know, 40 years of use and abuse many of the stock welds might be compromised from flexing thru the years.

[914forme]

My questions are:
For my application with the Brad Mayeur Kit, do I need the full Tangerine kit with the Heim braces or is this overkill?

Nope do it!!!!

I do not want to seam weld the entire car, but are there some spots that would be helpful for my application? It will be on the rotisserie, so it will not be terribly hard.

No it sucks and is not worth the time and effort, and that is coming from a guy that likes to make two pieces of metal into one.


I am not doing the GT reinforcement kit, Good it is a waste of time, energy, and money for your situation. the Brad Mayeur kit is the only place I am willing to add a lot of weight (I am offsetting this with a fiberglass hood and trunk.). Brad's kit is the best if you don't mind not having the factory looking logs.

Anything else that is reasonable reinforcement-wise? I just want a car that will handle the 3.2 power in a street environment and last a long time

Brad's kit picks up the outer rear suspension point so your good there.

916 roof (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

[flyer86d]

I like the GT reinforcements and I did weld them into my factory six because the chassis cracks over the top of the rear axles with a large torquey engine. That is the smallest chassis section in the area spanning the engine and transmission(does that make sense?). If the chassis has sound longitudinals and floors, all should be well for a street driven car.

Charlie

[SirAndy]

I just want a car that will handle the 3.2 power in a street environment and last a long time

IMHO, not a single one of those items listed is needed for a street driven 3.2L ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

[burton73]

I think you should add to list that the clutch tube as it should be reinforced as they seem to fail on way too many cars. I may say given time it will fail on all cars. It is not a rust thing but a design flaw.

This is something that I think you should do as I believe that it will fail in time and you do not want to have to go back and dick with it. Read up on all the guys that have fixed there’s and get some insight into it.

It may be a not if, but when!

Bob B
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif)

[amfab]

...You don't need to seam weld everything if you have enough plug welds to transfer 40-50% of any load to the new skins. Seam welding may help prevent moisture penetration and long term rusting. Applying rust prevention measures like internal frame coatings, POR 15, and seam sealer may also be important unless the car will always be garaged and not driven in the rain. (LA probable)

While your in there, replace the rear trunk hinges with the JWest heim joints that are fully adjustable to perfect your gaps, and consider the gas lift trunk shocks sized for the weight of the glass lid(s). Camp914 has a nice set-up already figured out at $50.

Thank you! The car will be kept dry enough that I would not seam weld for moisture, only for strength, I am coating the inside of the longs and between the firewalls with the green Eastwood stuff and I am going to sandblast and epoxy prime the whole thing.

I kind of like the factory trunk springs, so I think my current worn springs (on the forward most notch with the metal hood) set to the rear notch may work. For the rear I may bend up some smaller diameter rear torsion springs, if not I will go gas in back.
Already have the Jwest trunk hinges, they are well done.

Your power level doesnt require any additional stiffening. Your tires dont require it. Your not tracking it.

So your not going to feel any additional stiffening on the road and not going to get any benefit out of any of the pieces you have listed except for doing trailing arm ear reinforcement which is due to weak metal from the factory and rust. This is a great while your in there project and the only thing you havent already dont that I would do.

Kind of what I was thinking when I started this post...

I do not want to seam weld the entire car, but are there some spots that would be helpful for my application? It will be on the rotisserie, so it will not be terribly hard.

No it sucks and is not worth the time and effort, and that is coming from a guy that likes to make two pieces of metal into one.


916 roof (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

Not even weld some of the rear shock tower seams?

I just want a car that will handle the 3.2 power in a street environment and last a long time

IMHO, not a single one of those items listed is needed for a street driven 3.2L ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

I really I do not need a 3.2 either... but ultimately you are right, these upgrades are probably not needed, but since I am doubling the power
and I am doing the longs and firewall anyway, I decided to add the stiffening kit—and while the suspension consoles and inner mounts seem solid, with the amount other rust on the car, a little reinforcement while I am in there will give me peace of mind. Doing the full Heim bar reinforcement though? I am not yet convinced. I am thinking maybe the trailing arm ear reinforcement and just boxing in the console and leaving out the heim joints...

I think you should add to list that the clutch tube as it should be reinforced as they seem to fail on way too many cars...

Bob B
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif)

Hi Bob, the cable tube is already messed up. The P.O. has some weird bolted reinforcement that will come out and I will re-weld the clutch cable tube. I am putting a 915 in it so I will also have to figure out a cable shifter and associated tubes, but I am wondering if that should all go on top of the tunnel. Thanks for the invite, I will come down and take a look at how you did the reinforcements. I am a little jammed up at work until the 17th of July, but after that I will have more time so I will come down and check it out.
-Andrew

[914forme]

The rear shock towers are the worse, still haven't finished welding al of mine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[Andyrew]

Rear shock towers are a real bitch to weld. Your sticking your gun 1' up into a hole you can't see and welding upside down (for the most part).

I did about 3" on mine and gave up. And I'm a Good welder.

[jmitro]

seam welding or stitch welding IMHO is a good idea but it's tough because the seam sealer will contaminate the welds. BTDT. Now when I had my BMW racecar acid dipped, it made seam welding Really easy!

[IronHillRestorations]

I'm going a bit crazy on the current project. Engman inner kit (actually from Mark Bland RIP), Resto-Design outer long kit, Rich Johnson's GT kit, plus pieces I've fabricated, and seam welding too.

[Cairo94507]

We welded in the inner-long kit on my Six and that was the extent of the stiffening. The car will not be raced or auto-crossed. I am old enough that I am not going to be throwing it into curves under full power. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[whitetwinturbo]

Hi Andrew,

If you want to come over to my shop I can go over all the elements that you are thinking of as a number of them are done on my 74 930 trans V8car that is on the rotisserie. I did mods to Brads kit in the way of drilling extra holes so it could be plug welded in addition to the places that brad said to weld to. My car has no rust (or I cannot see any) and I wanted over kill to make sure that I could not twist it with 400 Ft Lbs. of high torque Eng. I have helms as well. Only one is finished welded in. I can show you how I did that.

Best regards,

Bob B
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

Hi Bob,
Love to stop by your shop and see your mods (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) . I'm looking over the PO's work on my my v8 930 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

[porschetub]

I just want a car that will handle the 3.2 power in a street environment and last a long time

IMHO, not a single one of those items listed is needed for a street driven 3.2L ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) ,stiffen it up you are removing flex and moving it to a area not beefed up.

[Eric_Shea]

I just want a car that will handle the 3.2 power in a street environment and last a long time

IMHO, not a single one of those items listed is needed for a street driven 3.2L ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

I'm pretty much with Andy on this one. Do all of your rust repair and then think your way through a couple of things.

1. Longs are the backbone of a 914. If I had a 914 that needed spinal surgery, I wouldn't be using it as a platform to be the next bionic man. Cut your losses now and find an amazing tub if you're going to put an amazingly expensive motor in it. I'M NOT SAYING YOURS IS BAD... just reading between the lines above with long repair etc. Tubs are "still" relatively cheap in comparison to metal work. Nothing worse in my book than to put a $20,000 motor in a $500 tub. It may seem mean or, like a huge step backward but, it not, on both counts. It's very easy now, to spend a little more and get the right tub than to deal with this later. It's the most important part of your build. Read your words; "I want it to last a long time". Rust never sleeps.

2. Seam welding for your application is out... unless you're incredibly bored and have nothing else to do and you're the one melting the metal.

3. I "do" think the factory stiffening kit would be good around the rear inner fender well area and as it floats over the shock area. This long piece, that others have poo-poo'd in the past, ties energy and force from your transmission mounts to your shocks and then moves forward to your suspension console (more on that). We HAVE seen tubs crack in these areas do to engine torque. Think of these components as a ladder frame; your longs being the outside rails. Your transmission mount being you first rung. Your rear trunk firewall/shock support area being rung two. Your suspension hangs off the rail and your cockpit firewall being rung three. A 3.2 isn't ungodly or unwieldy in the general hp department but, it does create a bit more torque than our T4 motors did. I'd say be prepared for that.

4. As mentioned, not much else needed for the suspension because of your narrow body configuration and your usage requirements. That said, tire compounds have changed over the years and, if you're welding on the stiffening kit, I'm not sure where I'd stop.

5. You shouldn't need any front sway bar reinforcements over stock.

I hope that helps,