914 Diesel build.... Options

[914-d]

I'm wondering about the gearbox... The gearing may be low for a diesel, and I'm wondering how the 901-based box will hold up to diesel torque...

--DD

That is why I stuck with the vw trans and went transverse, correct gearing and the trans will handle the 375 lbs of touque

[914forme]

What you need for these is an 6 speed out of a Audi or VW TDI kinda like these. Problem is solved, it will bolt up to an ALH and has the proper gearing and handles more that 375 FtP. Are not cheap, are rare in the USA, but Europe has them. Same basic trans as the Boxster S 6 speed but with better gearing.

Get this thing done man, once it is driving you can make fools out of all us speculators. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)



These can be found here for a price that makes me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

[914-d]

Might use that trans on the next one. I have a guy in Amsterdam I buy from can get quite a better price. Those trans have issues so he only sells them rebuilt
I did an ALH conversion in my A4 quattro. He shipped the trans on April 10...was at my door 2 days later. Have bought several from him.

[914forme]

I do the same thing but use a guy in England.

[PatrickB]

Using the 901 trans. The engine I'm using is an older mechanical injection AAZ.I don't think I'll get more than 150 horse out of it as it sits. Fuelling is up, timing is advanced, and if I can figure out a nice way to fool the wastegate the boost will be up. Wastegate isn't adjustable. IF I remember correctly engine will turn about 2800 at 60 mph. Online calculator tells me it was turning 2641 at 100 kph in the Jettta. Close enough. We autocross the car, gearing should be fine, especially since I put on a bigger turbo that's going to be a little slower to spool. Old school diesel stuff. The bigger turbo didn't start making good boost until at least 2600 or 2800 on the slightly smaller 1.6 I took it off. The K14 I took off stared at about 1400 and made good boost by 2000 but is much more limited higher up, very restrictive onte h exhaust side and won't flow nearly as well. Moves less air at the same boost as the bigger turbo does.
It will for sure have a fair amount more torque, especially when the turbo is coming on hard. I don't think it will be enough more to be an issue. If it is.... I have 2 more 901 side shift transmissions under the bench!
The 901 looks a lot bigger to me than the 020 in the Jetta, and I've only ever broke one of those in 20 years or so of daily driving. Engine has enough torque that we had tires breaking loose halfway through second gear when we autocrossed it once last year (914 was down for wheel bearings).

I do want to figure out how to get a higher gear in 5th, maybe 4th too. First thought was go see DR Evil. Maybe a taller ring and pinion and bring all the gears up? Someday...
Swapping out the trans for the stuff you guys are talking about might happen eventually but not this year.


Besides... I'm CHEAP! Aim is to do this for less than 500 bucks other than the KEP adaptor. The only out of pocket other than that so far is the starter. Bought 2 high torque starters for 80 bucks for the pair from another guy that gave up on his swapping. the other expense will be the cooling. Also trying to figure out an easy way to put heat in the car, mostly for drying out windows on wet mornings. Going to tear apart one of my mark2 Jetta parts cars to see if I can use a complete heater box. Open to other options too. Probably a later date thing, not now.

I like to keep my projects within a family of parts.... Early ones included a Pontiac Astre with a 3.8 Buick (all GM) 82 firebird with a 400 small black (all GM). Various engines in various old chevy pickups. Only exception to that rule was a 354 perkins in a 4 door 3/4 ton chev pickup. I figure VW in a Porsche is all in the family.


Next auto cross is july 22, don't think I'm going to make it.

[914forme]

I used to Auto-x an A3 Jetta, loved that little car.

Fooling the actuator is pretty easy, most people just used an aquarium air valve, old school. Small restrictor will also work.

As far as the 901 goes you will be fine. The Evil Dr. will be a great resource I would look for an H or HA 5th, and play around with the rest of the gearing. His Evil one can tell you what gears can be sourced cheaply and should work with the diesel. I used to launch my 914-4 in 2nd gear at the auto-x so with the diesel you should be fine in second. That removes the weakest part of the trans.

Cooling should be easy as this engine only really produces heat under load. So a small rad should be easy. Just look at the size of the stock Rabbit Rad and calculate the cooling area. Then find something that fits. You might be able to use a couple well placed Heater cores from a large truck, and get enough airflow to keep the front trunk like Brant's oil coolers on his race car.

I love cheap builds, and mine start that way and spin out of control with while I am in their itis.

[PatrickB]

I used to Auto-x an A3 Jetta, loved that little car.

Fooling the actuator is pretty easy, most people just used an aquarium air valve, old school. Small restrictor will also work.

As far as the 901 goes you will be fine. The Evil Dr. will be a great resource I would look for an H or HA 5th, and play around with the rest of the gearing. His Evil one can tell you what gears can be sourced cheaply and should work with the diesel. I used to launch my 914-4 in 2nd gear at the auto-x so with the diesel you should be fine in second. That removes the weakest part of the trans.

Cooling should be easy as this engine only really produces heat under load. So a small rad should be easy. Just look at the size of the stock Rabbit Rad and calculate the cooling area. Then find something that fits. You might be able to use a couple well placed Heater cores from a large truck, and get enough airflow to keep the front trunk like Brant's oil coolers on his race car.

I love cheap builds, and mine start that way and spin out of control with while I am in their itis.

What |I did to fool the waste gate on the K14 was pull out one of the banjo bolts and drill a small hole to bleed a little boost off the signal line. Neater than a valve and incognito. Just keep going a little bigger hole until I get where I want to be. Apparently this engine is good for about 30 pounds without head studs. No point going that high without an intercooler though.20 pounds is lots. The K14 actually is adjustable but I was afraid of breaking the bolt off. T3 is not adjustable. Might pull the same trick on it.
As for cooling, plan is to get the engine sitting in place, then figure out what room is left. Then make a trip to a wrecking yard with a tape measure... I'd like to use the rad out of a mark 3 golf (2 fans) I have sitting here but I don't think it will fit... unless I can mount it across the front of the engine bay a little low and on an angle, air flow directed from under the car. Not counting on that. I've been running diesels for a long time and you're right, they don't make a lot of heat unless they're working hard. My kid was showing me pictures of Honda rads that might work. VW Fox should work but probably hard to find.

[PatrickB]

How critical is it to have the crankshaft of the engine on the same alignment as the previous engine? I currently have the engine in the car, but I'm running into a snag. the back end of the valve cover is touching the sheet metal that separates the engine compartment from the trunk, and I'm still over an inch lower than where I should be to have everything line up the same and allow me to use the stock crossmember at the front. There's already been a hole cut out of the sheetmetal by the previous owner to allow access to a distributor on a V8 he had in it with a nice patch panel held in place with a screw. I can cut the hole bigger if need be.
Other option is to find all the parts to tip the engine over farther, the adaptor will allow me to do it. There's an oil pan and pump available, but the pump is for the gas engine and is smaller than the diesel oil pump. Not my preferred option... Also shift s the weight more off centre.

[914forme]

To answer your question if it was just the engine, it does not matter at all. It can go anywhere you want it to go. Since you have the 901 you might want to go with the stock location of the 901. Might.

So lots of people have built adapters to move engines forward with the 901. Renegade I think has one that moves the engine and trans forward. If you need to shift to the side, that becomes more of an issue, as your dealing with mechanical shift linkage.

It can be done just how much work do you want to deal with.

As far as tipping the engine, the pump is one thing, I have a feeling what you really need is the pan and pickup tube. Check the Vanagon of that time, the diesel engine was a water-cooled out of the rabbit, Jetta, etc.... While the Gas version had the Wasserboxer. That gets your engine tilted and down maybe where you need it.

Or cut the trunk wall and build a little box to cover it all backup.

You could just put a dimple into it by (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

[Dr Evil]

Very cool! Always wanted to see something like this. Hit me up and I can see how we can save $$ and get you want you need. Since you are not afraid to wrench, there are cheaper ways to try out some gears once it is running that will let you dial it in before you spend on more expensive gears. The different ring and pinion would be a costly step, though. Lets explore other options.

[Chris H.]

Yes the Vanagon diesel oil pan allows you to turn the engine 50 degrees in order to get it under the Vanagon deck lid. Many people use them to install other VW engines into the Vanagon such as the 1.8t or a newer TDI engine. It's a direct bolt up for many inline VW engines. No reason you couldn't use it for a 914 diesel.

You can buy a used one, or maybe contact these guys and see if they will sell just the pan.

Foreign Auto Supply

It's real fancy compared to the stock pan (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . Scroll down and you can see how the setup installs into a Vanagon. It's kind of alarming how much it's tilted but since the oil pan compensates it runs just the same as any other engine.

[Dave_Darling]

Maybe a taller ring and pinion and bring all the gears up? Someday...
Besides... I'm CHEAP!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! A new ring and pinion and CHEAP do not go anywhere near each other. The only alternate R&Ps that I am aware of for the 914-based boxes are from the Sporto cars, or custom-made. I'll give you three guesses how cheap those are, and the first two don't count...

The CHEAP way to make your gearing taller is bigger wheels and tires. Get some 18s with 50- or 60-series tires on them and that should drop the revs everywhere. The speedo will be off at that point, though.

--DD

[914forme]

To add off Dave's ideas, the Speedo fix is much easier.

On the cheap I used to run a bike speedo $10 and a magnet taped to the CV. Rolled it a couple of rotation like the direction said and I was safe at my venue. No way I was getting a ticket on a service road for going over 10 MPH. Asshole campus cops with nothing better to do but bust a driver for going 2 MPH over a speed limit.

Next level up would be go with a GPS speedo. Many of applications on your phone, some are free but the phone cost.

If you want it in the dash, many options for GPS add ons for the gauge or Speedhut sells one that is enclosed looks similar to the original VDO.

Beyond that taller gearing is way cheaper still.

A proper Passat FWD TDI Transaxle from a FWD is cheaper. What about a five speed out of the late 80s early 90s VW fox it was a longitudinal engine. Mechanical stick, but still might work. Gearing would still be a bit low, but maybe better than the 901

Or a bus trans out of a TDI bus.

Many ways to skin a cat.

Of course you could run drag slicks and just light them up so they grow bigger and bigger and bigger. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) If this was a TDI then that would be entirely possible.

You could also go with a Subaru MT5 your already running an adapter plate.

[Porschef]

I don't know the gearing letters, but maybe a nice tall 5th in the 901 is the way to go for now.

[PatrickB]

To answer your question if it was just the engine, it does not matter at all. It can go anywhere you want it to go. Since you have the 901 you might want to go with the stock location of the 901. Might.

So lots of people have built adapters to move engines forward with the 901. Renegade I think has one that moves the engine and trans forward. If you need to shift to the side, that becomes more of an issue, as your dealing with mechanical shift linkage.

It can be done just how much work do you want to deal with.

As far as tipping the engine, the pump is one thing, I have a feeling what you really need is the pan and pickup tube. Check the Vanagon of that time, the diesel engine was a water-cooled out of the rabbit, Jetta, etc.... While the Gas version had the Wasserboxer. That gets your engine tilted and down maybe where you need it.

Or cut the trunk wall and build a little box to cover it all backup.

You could just put a dimple into it by (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

Tipping the engine without tipping the trans is possible with the adaptor, pan and oil pump available from Vanagon but for a gas engine (smaller oil pump). I think I'm going to cut the hole a little bigger and build a box to cover it. I want to leave the 901 trans in the stock location, and try to have the centreline of the crankshaft in as close to the same place as the original engine as possible.

[PatrickB]

Very cool! Always wanted to see something like this. Hit me up and I can see how we can save $$ and get you want you need. Since you are not afraid to wrench, there are cheaper ways to try out some gears once it is running that will let you dial it in before you spend on more expensive gears. The different ring and pinion would be a costly step, though. Lets explore other options.

I will be getting in touch with you at some point. the gearing that's there now will work fine, great for autocross. To take full advantage of the engine though I'd like to see high gear down around 2000rpm at 50 mph, engine will have lots of torque to handle it.
Did I mention I have 2 spare side shift transmission sitting in the corner? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[PatrickB]

Maybe a taller ring and pinion and bring all the gears up? Someday...
Besides... I'm CHEAP!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! A new ring and pinion and CHEAP do not go anywhere near each other. The only alternate R&Ps that I am aware of for the 914-based boxes are from the Sporto cars, or custom-made. I'll give you three guesses how cheap those are, and the first two don't count...

The CHEAP way to make your gearing taller is bigger wheels and tires. Get some 18s with 50- or 60-series tires on them and that should drop the revs everywhere. The speedo will be off at that point, though.

--DD

Not much room for taller tires, those are 16" Ronals with 225/55R 16's on the back. Pretty much fills the wheelwell and puts about an 8" wide patch on the road

[PatrickB]

I don't know the gearing letters, but maybe a nice tall 5th in the 901 is the way to go for now.

My thought exactly.

[PatrickB]

Did a little more cutting.... can't get the engine in line with the old position. Means we're into building a custom front crossmember... I had visions of using the stock crossmember to bolt to. It looked like it should work with everything sitting on the floor...

[PatrickB]

need to clean up the cuts a little more, do some work on a front mount, and do some work on the heater hose lines. One comes off the end of the head and doesn't leave enough room to get a line on. Have to use them fro circulation at least even if I don't put heat in the car..(but I plan to)