Widebody LS6 rebuild., long time 914 world car desgned and built by B. massaged and refined by Paul, now entrusted to me to rebuild and repair the front end and make my own. Options

[dan10101]

Dan,

A big thank you for buying and rebuilding the Screamsicle. I helped Paul with the car for about 6 years. I am also the purveyor of the Gas Can.

I fixed many systems on the car but never got the chance to fully refine them. I'm a bit anal about certain things, i.e. how it looks or can it be simpler. A good example in the "octopus". Once we figured out all the issues with the old one, I build the one on the car from scratch that was stronger and simplified. If you keep the same basic setup around the clutch and brake masters, I'd be more that happy to make a version 2.0 of the carbon fibre mini skid.

Good lucky in the project and I can't wait to see the finished project. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions.

--Matt

Thanks Matt. My earlier reply didn't get sent for some reason.
I really appreciate the craftsmanship that you put into your work. I was just looking at the Octopus about an hour ago and noticed the touches you put in the supports. Very high quality. I think I can save the skid. it's intact with two of the bolts ripped out in the impact. It's actually something I'm watching as I put it back together to make sure it fits the same.

Sooo, what is in that gas can??

Thanks,
Dan

[dan10101]

Update on Mondays progress...

Finally I was able to pull the car in and begin analysis. I spent the day going over the engine to determine what and if there is anything wrong with it. The lifter noise is bothersome but apparently it's a byproduct of aluminum block and heads, high lift cam, headers. My "fix" for this was to make some insulator panels from another project that fit and cover up the headers, leaving the top of the engine exposed. I started the engine and the noise was drastically reduced. I then pulled the panels out with the engine running and it was obvious that the noise was being transmitted thru the headers. I don't know if I can make something that will reduced the noise and still allow heat to dissipate. That is something to work on. Maybe some header wrap. I'll still be going thru the motions of pulling the valve covers, checking lifters, and ensuring all is well under the hood.

A couple of other things I found in my investigation.
The stethascope test revieled that non of the lifters were noiser that any others.
it also revieled that there is also a very noisy injector or 2 that I will be replacing.
1 cylinder (#5) is very weak when checking header temp cyl to cyl. Like 1/2 of the others. The compression test showed that cylinder to be one of the highest, so it's likely an injector, or coil/wire/plug.
All the cyls compression tested between 160 and 180.
There was one plug that was loose, (#4) the others very tight.
There was one plug wire (#1) that lost the end when I removed it. It might have been ok or not before I started messing with things.
The Bore-scope showed a nice pretty interior of the cylinders.

Apparently there is a known problem with the pickup tube getting an O-ring nick on installation that can cause oil pressure to give a false reading (mixing air and oil)
All this can cause the lifter tick in some cars. I need to replace the oil pan gasket, so Ill put that on my list for that job. I also want see if there is any additional baffling I can do 'while I'm in there'.

Today (Tuesday) was spent with the Datsun back in the shop. Some additional Weber tweaks, fixing the chokes and most importantly adding a return line back to the fuel tank helped it run way better. Still needs more work, but first he's going to put some mufflers on that monster.

Tomorrow is another day. hope to begin tear down!

[dan10101]

Here's a suspension question...

If I convert the 911 Bilstein struts over to coil overs...
https://www.rsrproducts.com/product-page/re...t-coil-over-kit

Would I be able to use the 914 control arms from the other car and connect them to the 911 struts/tie rods/and aluminum center section. Just how interchangeable are the 914 and 911 lower control arms?

trying to kill to birds with one stone.

or leave it as is.. (still need to repair broken lower control arm, possibly RS lower ball joint.)

Porsche 930 Turbo (1988) front suspension complete with aluminum cross
member
• Tangerine Racing 32 mm thru body front sway bar kit with adjustable drop links
• Porsche 930 22 mm Torsion Bars
• Elephant Racing poly bronze control arm bushings
• Elephant Racing de-cambered ball joints
• Rear trailing arms boxed and strengthened
• Bump steer kit
• Steering rack limiter kit
• Bilstein front struts and rear coil-overs
• Eibach 250lb. rear springs, top hats modified with spring helper sleeve and
powder coated, strengthened double wall rear shock towers

[ChrisFoley]

Apparently there is a known problem with the pickup tube getting an O-ring nick on installation that can cause oil pressure to give a false reading (mixing air and oil)
All this can cause the lifter tick in some cars. I need to replace the oil pan gasket, so Ill put that on my list for that job. I also want see if there is any additional baffling I can do 'while I'm in there'.

We replaced the oil pump when the crank was out for new rod bearings. I think that a nicked o-ring was the cause of the spun rod bearing. We were very careful not to allow that to happen during installation of the new pump.

The pistons were left in the cylinders with the rods hanging down while the crank was out.

Not sure if I have the lifter p/n that the GM performance shop used when they replaced the camshaft but I might have that info (in deep storage) somewhere in my old records. In my office I have a box containing the old (1.7 ratio aluminum) rocker arms. A couple have damaged rod cups but would otherwise be re-usable. The box they're in is a Comp Cams Roller Lifter box (p/n 839-16) but no idea if it is from the lifters used in that engine.

[ChrisFoley]

Here's a suspension question...

If I convert the 911 Bilstein struts over to coil overs...
https://www.rsrproducts.com/product-page/re...t-coil-over-kit

Would I be able to use the 914 control arms from the other car and connect them to the 911 struts/tie rods/and aluminum center section. Just how interchangeable are the 914 and 911 lower control arms?
...

The only substantial difference between 914-4 and 911 a-arms is the forward spline embedded in the torsion bar tube. Anti-sway bar mounts can be changed easily enough where necessary. There are no other meaningful differences afaik.

[914forme]

And the different in spline count on the 914-4 to 911 arms means different torsion bars are required. The -4 arms will work in the AL crossbar, just need to use the -4 adjuster caps instead of the 911 stuff.

[dan10101]

We replaced the oil pump when the crank was out for new rod bearings. I think that a nicked o-ring was the cause of the spun rod bearing. We were very careful not to allow that to happen during installation of the new pump.

The pistons were left in the cylinders with the rods hanging down while the crank was out.

Not sure if I have the lifter p/n that the GM performance shop used when they replaced the camshaft but I might have that info (in deep storage) somewhere in my old records. In my office I have a box containing the old (1.7 ratio aluminum) rocker arms. A couple have damaged rod cups but would otherwise be re-usable. The box they're in is a Comp Cams Roller Lifter box (p/n 839-16) but no idea if it is from the lifters used in that engine.

Well, knowing you were in there last makes me feel better. I'm not getting any foaming, so it may be just fine. The other thing I wanted to look at oil pan wise was the oil pan baffling for hard cornering. I suspect it's pretty good stock, but was wondering.

I thought the 1.8s were in there prior to the cam swap. But I guess it makes sense to put a smaller cam in and add the 1.8 rockers to get some of the lift back. Then you could just swap to 1.7s if it wasn't enough to solve the problem. I know it had a lot of problems with pulling studs out of the aluminum head so they went to shaft rockers. I think it's a good plan, I doubt I would ever go back to that nightmare again.

You don't happen to know the latest cam specs do you? from that literally 1 foot stack of papers, that seems to be missing. I guess I can go through them again.
I think I figured out the exhaust specs.
Exhaust only...

114 LSA I don't know if this changes with a 1.8 rocker.
.537 lift (measured on 1.7 rocker)
.565 lift (calculated of internet for 1.8 rocker)

224 duration
235 duration estimate with 1.8 rocker.

again this is exhaust only, but it gives an idea...

Had a little fun today. It's something I do anytime I get a chance. Open Headers.
The funny part is the 1/8" spacers falling off. I didn't know what it was so I shut it down. But, you get the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f-P6CaALPw...eature=youtu.be

[dan10101]

The only substantial difference between 914-4 and 911 a-arms is the forward spline embedded in the torsion bar tube. Anti-sway bar mounts can be changed easily enough where necessary. There are no other meaningful differences afaik.

And the different in spline count on the 914-4 to 911 arms means different torsion bars are required. The -4 arms will work in the AL crossbar, just need to use the -4 adjuster caps instead of the 911 stuff.

Ok, so I think I have 2 options.
My current setup is all 911.
If I use the control arms from the 914, I can use the front and rear connections to the 911 torsion bar and use the 914 control arm with my 22mm 911 torsion bar. My issue there is is already has Elephant racing bushings. I would need to replace the pressed on bushing onto the 914 control arm. (that is actually an issue with either solution. )

If I buy the coil over kit it doesn't matter which cap ends I use since I won't be using a torsion bar. But I still need a solution to the Elephant racing bushings that are on the bent/broken drivers control arm .

I guess I have a third option. To repair and reinforce the bent/broken drivers side control arm. Then I can keep the elephant racing bushings intact.

One other suspension issue is the cap missing from the passenger side lower ball joint. I'll look at that tomorrow and see if it's loose or not.

Oh, one success for today is all the suspension is off the car. Well, except for the sway bar and the aluminum cross bar on the front end. The fuel line went thru it, so I need to drain the fuel tank to remove it. Not a bad thing, just messy.

I have to say this car is a dream to work on. So clean, so well put together. I did a rusty old jeep a few months ago. Uggg......

[dan10101]

What ET did you determine you need?

Math ug...

1"=25.5mm

It's 50mm et now.
plus 3" spacer 76.5mm
If i move it back to a 1" spacer and a 0et, I would be just outside the current location by .5mm

0 ET calculations.
-76.5mm + 50mm = 26.5mm
1" spacer = 25.5mm
leaving 1mm difference, ( can live with that but not much more)

-26.5mm ET calculations
-76.5mm + 50mm = -26.5mm

So, if you're still reading.
either 0mm ET
or -26ish ET

The deeper the better...

Ok, so the fronts are 3" the rears are 2". It's really tight for the rear tires. 11" with only supposed to fit 10". I think I'm going to repair the 2 front rims and go with what I have for right now. Then I can explore other options later.

[ChrisFoley]

I found the 6/24/2010 invoice from J&M Motorsports with p/n info:
Comp Cams Camshaft LS1: 3114R/3753R 54-000-11
T&D 1.8 Ratio Rockers: PK-1.8 TD
LS1 Valve Spring Upgrade Kit: TFS-2500300
Valve Cover Spacers: 3060800
5/16 x .116 4130 7.300 Pushrods 5116-7300

Use 911 a-arms. You want those big torsion bars or you'll end up with oversteer again.

[dan10101]

I found the 6/24/2010 invoice from J&M Motorsports with p/n info:
Comp Cams Camshaft LS1: 3114R/3753R 54-000-11
T&D 1.8 Ratio Rockers: PK-1.8 TD
LS1 Valve Spring Upgrade Kit: TFS-2500300
Valve Cover Spacers: 3060800
5/16 x .116 4130 7.300 Pushrods 5116-7300

Use 911 a-arms. You want those big torsion bars or you'll end up with oversteer again.

Thanks Chris. I have that, but I did some more searching and finally found a Comp Cams PDF that shows their grind specs. I don't know why they don't refer you to that when you search their website. Those pushrod numbers may come in handy down the road a bit..

I meant to point out that the comp cam number 54-000-11 is a cam blank for custom grinds. But the PDF I found shows the specs on the grinds so we're good.

In English the advertised specs with 1.7 rockers are:
Intake .544 lift 281 duration
Exhaust .534 lift 278 duration

With 1.8 rockers
intake .576 lift 295 duration
exhaust .565 lift 291 duration

This is all more for me so I can find it later.
http://www.compcams.com/catalog/COMP2011/p...011_417-493.pdf


As far as the control arm question. Can you get elephant bushing sleeve that press onto the replacement control arm without having to order the whole set?

[dan10101]

Thursday update

I finished with removing the suspension and made an executive decision to not pull the engine. What can I say, I'm lazy and was only going to do it because I was curious. Well, I'm not that curious. So I decided to just pull the trans so i could connect the jig to the rear trans mounts. So the trans is now out and the next step is to connect the Jig to the body and see where we stand.
The initial try showed me ai need to trim some excess material around one of the plates in the back. Then it should drop down.

I did notice that a prior mod to mount the clutch and brake master cylinders eliminated one of the mounting points for the drivers front control arm. I'll need to see if that will be a problem keeping it from dropping down all the way. Or if I need to put it back or just eliminate it.

[914forme]

So the 911 Torsion bar will not fit the 914-4 arms.

If you go coil over torsion bars do not matter. I would get a plug for the end of the arm though.

Elephant Racing Bushings are nice, and for the poly bronze set I had, they sold me a set of the base sleeves front and rear when I swapped the control arms and rear arms. I would just contact them and see if they can provide sleeves for the arms. You could also have a set machined. And if they are not damaged the instructions say to install with a base of JB weld if required. JB weld can be neutralized with a bit of heat from a torch and they will pull off if reduced effort.

[burton73]

I want to point out that the suspension points is there on your car just the one piece shown was removed to fit the box for the peddles for brake and clutch master. My V8 car with 930 is the same. Bill that built your car was very kind to me and gave me the bent metal to fit these parts. The suspension is bolted to the front points and the point where the rack is. The under-sway bar point on the driver’s side is not there and our cars (mine and yours) need the over the top bar like you have. Now the cover will not have 4 points to bolt up. I am working that out


Bob B

[914forme]

Bob and Dan, you don't need it as three points make a plane. I would just add a piece to keep the noise down from vibration and be done.

I have the same issue with my pedal box, I think I can replicate the threaded receiver for the under tray as it is in the same plane as the floor. So I have an early metal cross bar that I will use to make sure it is in the correct place. Also have a long stick to measure the distance back to the rear suspension console. And of course that measurement is documented off these points in the drawings I have. My MCs are all inside the car on my box as of right now, as I wanted to be able to adjust the pedals if need be.

Most likely another detail I over thought on that car. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[dan10101]

So the 911 Torsion bar will not fit the 914-4 arms.

If you go coil over torsion bars do not matter. I would get a plug for the end of the arm though.

Elephant Racing Bushings are nice, and for the poly bronze set I had, they sold me a set of the base sleeves front and rear when I swapped the control arms and rear arms. I would just contact them and see if they can provide sleeves for the arms. You could also have a set machined. And if they are not damaged the instructions say to install with a base of JB weld if required. JB weld can be neutralized with a bit of heat from a torch and they will pull off if reduced effort.

I'll see if they will come off easily. If not and I can get sleeves from ER, I'll do that. Good to know you were able to do that.

I probably will just get another new 911 A-Arm. I don't want it to be weird down the road with 1 914 and 1 911. Then I can start with the existing 22mm torsion bars and then later I can change to coil overs.

[dan10101]

I want to point out that the suspension points is there on your car just the one piece shown was removed to fit the box for the peddles for brake and clutch master. My V8 car with 930 is the same. Bill that built your car was very kind to me and gave me the bent metal to fit these parts. The suspension is bolted to the front points and the point where the rack is. The under-sway bar point on the driver’s side is not there and our cars (mine and yours) need the over the top bar like you have. Now the cover will not have 4 points to bolt up. I am working that out

Bob B

Looks like a nice build. How long ago was that?

I don't see the cover as structural. Although the original strap seemed to be. Here's what happened to this one in the wreck.

[dan10101]

Bob and Dan, you don't need it as three points make a plane. I would just add a piece to keep the noise down from vibration and be done.

I have the same issue with my pedal box, I think I can replicate the threaded receiver for the under tray as it is in the same plane as the floor. So I have an early metal cross bar that I will use to make sure it is in the correct place. Also have a long stick to measure the distance back to the rear suspension console. And of course that measurement is documented off these points in the drawings I have. My MCs are all inside the car on my box as of right now, as I wanted to be able to adjust the pedals if need be.

Most likely another detail I over thought on that car. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I like the carbon fiber cover to protect the master cylinders. But I may move them over to the drivers left a bit. I feel like I'm twisting myself to reach the pedals. And my not so big feet feel really big. I also plan to lower and turn the drivers seat a degree or 2 to put the steering wheel in front of the driver.

I will probably run a tube from the strut tower to the front of the lower control arm. probably overkill, but i don't want any question of the strength.

[dan10101]

Friday Update
In trying to lower the car onto the jig I ran into a few spots that needed work.
trimming the front of the rear lower control arm.
eliminating the motor mounts
eliminating the point where the master and clutch cylinder are located, ( as just discussed)
And unfortunately eliminating the rear trans mounts. Apparently they are modified and my pickups were too long. However, they were located in the right position forward to back. That at least told me it should have been correct. Also they removed the slant. I tried to do the same, but they are still to long. so I just hacked them off. the other pickup points in the rear started easily with finger threading the bolts. So i'm confident the rear section is in the right location.

The pictures below are where the front pickup points differ from the Jig. that will soon be 'fixed'.

[burton73]

I want to point out that the suspension points is there on your car just the one piece shown was removed to fit the box for the peddles for brake and clutch master. My V8 car with 930 is the same. Bill that built your car was very kind to me and gave me the bent metal to fit these parts. The suspension is bolted to the front points and the point where the rack is. The under-sway bar point on the driver’s side is not there and our cars (mine and yours) need the over the top bar like you have. Now the cover will not have 4 points to bolt up. I am working that out

Bob B

Looks like a nice build. How long ago was that?

I don't see the cover as structural. Although the original strap seemed to be. Here's what happened to this one in the wreck.

Shot today!

Bob B