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> swapping engines someday, Whats the weight difference
Jetsetsurfshop
post Sep 4 2018, 07:08 PM
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Hey race fans,
Sometime in the future I plan on running a 2.7 six over my four banger. Anyone have any idea about where my weight will be after the -6? I'm I looking at 50lbs? 100lbs? More??
I could drop some weight from the car still. Want to get that HP to weight just right!!
Theres a large group in NASA (ST4) I think I could fit into perfectly If I get the math correct. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)
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Justinp71
post Sep 4 2018, 11:07 PM
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I'm not a super hard core racer, but the back end of my car has never felt heavy with the mag 2.7 or the aluminum 3.2. It feels pretty well balanced around the turns. Oh... the power is awesome!

I have gotten loose on the track and the car kind of evenly pushes, I think I am a little lucky that my setup happened to be balanced well enough from the beginning. Make sure you get 225's+ on the rear, that helped a lot.

To answer your question directly I have never corner balanced my car but with a 2.7L I weighed in at about 2200lbs total.
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Jetsetsurfshop
post Sep 5 2018, 04:32 AM
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QUOTE(Justinp71 @ Sep 4 2018, 09:07 PM) *

I'm not a super hard core racer, but the back end of my car has never felt heavy with the mag 2.7 or the aluminum 3.2. It feels pretty well balanced around the turns. Oh... the power is awesome!

I have gotten loose on the track and the car kind of evenly pushes, I think I am a little lucky that my setup happened to be balanced well enough from the beginning. Make sure you get 225's+ on the rear, that helped a lot.

To answer your question directly I have never corner balanced my car but with a 2.7L I weighed in at about 2200lbs total.


Sounds like a fun car. I always wondered how someone can not be a hardcore racer? Once I went to the track I've been on that slipper slope ever since! Its a real problem!!!
Are you 2200lbs with driver? I can work with that math but not sure if I can loose all that weight.
2200lbs at an average 196HP is ST4.
My cars current weight is 2251lbs with driver, 1/4 of gas and cool shirt cooler full.
The class i'm in now is ST5.
2291lbs at an average 157HP. (Had to add 40lbs of ballast)

So knowing the weight difference between the a -4 and -6 setup will tell me how much HP i need to get. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)
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mepstein
post Sep 5 2018, 05:36 AM
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175lbs +\- for a 2.0-2.7
200 +\- for a 3.0-3.2
225 - 3.6
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Jetsetsurfshop
post Sep 5 2018, 06:27 AM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Sep 5 2018, 03:36 AM) *

175lbs +\- for a 2.0-2.7
200 +\- for a 3.0-3.2
225 - 3.6


I obviously was hoping for a lot less.
Thanks for the info.
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mepstein
post Sep 5 2018, 06:52 AM
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The 6 is beefier than the 4 but even if you just add 50% to a 4 (250lbs) you are at 125. Then add the oil tank and lines and 5 more quarts of oil. 50% more induction etc and you’re there pretty quickly. I bet just the cam towers, something that a 4 doesn’t have, adds 25 lbs. Most of the time, guys figure on 200 for a small 6 and 250 for a big one. That gets you in the ballpark.

At least the weight is in the right place.
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brant
post Sep 5 2018, 09:26 AM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Sep 5 2018, 05:36 AM) *

175lbs +\- for a 2.0-2.7
200 +\- for a 3.0-3.2
225 - 3.6



I always tell people its an additional 150lbs.
but I think with all of the accessories... tank, lines... these numbers are good too

Also, the early Sandcast 2.0 is heavy.. I moved to a 7R case to drop more weight and remain 2.0


The race shop I use out here... (specializes in 914's) His advice is that the 4 cylinders can be built faster and lighter until about 2.5L
then the 6's start to make more sense
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mepstein
post Sep 5 2018, 09:33 AM
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QUOTE(brant @ Sep 5 2018, 11:26 AM) *

QUOTE(mepstein @ Sep 5 2018, 05:36 AM) *

175lbs +\- for a 2.0-2.7
200 +\- for a 3.0-3.2
225 - 3.6



I always tell people its an additional 150lbs.
but I think with all of the accessories... tank, lines... these numbers are good too

Also, the early Sandcast 2.0 is heavy.. I moved to a 7R case to drop more weight and remain 2.0


The race shop I use out here... (specializes in 914's) His advice is that the 4 cylinders can be built faster and lighter until about 2.5L
then the 6's start to make more sense

I just saw a dyno printout for a 2.0 sandcast six that was making 272hp at the crank. He uses it in his ‘65 race car. He said the mag cases would not last for him. They are all too old.
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brant
post Sep 5 2018, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Sep 5 2018, 09:33 AM) *

QUOTE(brant @ Sep 5 2018, 11:26 AM) *

QUOTE(mepstein @ Sep 5 2018, 05:36 AM) *

175lbs +\- for a 2.0-2.7
200 +\- for a 3.0-3.2
225 - 3.6



I always tell people its an additional 150lbs.
but I think with all of the accessories... tank, lines... these numbers are good too

Also, the early Sandcast 2.0 is heavy.. I moved to a 7R case to drop more weight and remain 2.0


The race shop I use out here... (specializes in 914's) His advice is that the 4 cylinders can be built faster and lighter until about 2.5L
then the 6's start to make more sense

I just saw a dyno printout for a 2.0 sandcast six that was making 272hp at the crank. He uses it in his ‘65 race car. He said the mag cases would not last for him. They are all too old.



That I would totally agree with
the machinist tried to talk me out of the switch
explained that the mag will not hold its shape and will need full machining, including line bore at each rebuild. (the sand cast is much stronger and needs thousands less in rebuild machining)

That is amazing HP for a 2.0
how did he do that?
still an actual 2.0?
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mepstein
post Sep 5 2018, 10:34 AM
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QUOTE(brant @ Sep 5 2018, 11:40 AM) *

QUOTE(mepstein @ Sep 5 2018, 09:33 AM) *

QUOTE(brant @ Sep 5 2018, 11:26 AM) *

QUOTE(mepstein @ Sep 5 2018, 05:36 AM) *

175lbs +\- for a 2.0-2.7
200 +\- for a 3.0-3.2
225 - 3.6



I always tell people its an additional 150lbs.
but I think with all of the accessories... tank, lines... these numbers are good too

Also, the early Sandcast 2.0 is heavy.. I moved to a 7R case to drop more weight and remain 2.0


The race shop I use out here... (specializes in 914's) His advice is that the 4 cylinders can be built faster and lighter until about 2.5L
then the 6's start to make more sense

I just saw a dyno printout for a 2.0 sandcast six that was making 272hp at the crank. He uses it in his ‘65 race car. He said the mag cases would not last for him. They are all too old.



That I would totally agree with
the machinist tried to talk me out of the switch
explained that the mag will not hold its shape and will need full machining, including line bore at each rebuild. (the sand cast is much stronger and needs thousands less in rebuild machining)

That is amazing HP for a 2.0
how did he do that?
still an actual 2.0?

Even with a lot of expensive machining, the problem is the mag is getting brittle and starts to come apart. Age is not kind. We have mag parts that should be worth thousands, like 911S oil consoles, minilite wheels and engine cases but they are too corroded to use. I'm sure part of it is condition dependent (east coast) but mag is so reactive and it will eventually age out before aluminum. Luckily, Catorce and guys like him are bringing new product to the game.

Still an actual 2.0 but for the guys who can afford to race '65-911's, its just money.
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brant
post Sep 5 2018, 10:41 AM
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[/quote]
Still an actual 2.0 but for the guys who can afford to race '65-911's, its just money.
[/quote]


Still pretty amazing
anything over 110hp/L is pretty amazing

220, 230 was about the ceiling from what I had heard
that is darn good output!


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mepstein
post Sep 5 2018, 11:01 AM
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[quote name='brant' date='Sep 5 2018, 12:41 PM' post='2645743']
[/quote]
Still an actual 2.0 but for the guys who can afford to race '65-911's, its just money.
[/quote]


Still pretty amazing
anything over 110hp/L is pretty amazing

220, 230 was about the ceiling from what I had heard
that is darn good output!
[/quote]
Porsche was doing 220-230 back in the late 60's on their race prepared 67-69S.
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Jetsetsurfshop
post Sep 5 2018, 01:11 PM
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So at 2450lbs I need to make 218HP average at the wheels
So at the flywheel thats around 255-260HP. If I take in account a 15% drop from flywheel to the wheels.
Think I'm asking to much from a mag case? Hell, I'm at 160HP (wheels) with my -4 mag engine now.

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mepstein
post Sep 5 2018, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE(Jetsetsurfshop @ Sep 5 2018, 03:11 PM) *

So at 2450lbs I need to make 218HP average at the wheels
So at the flywheel thats around 255-260HP. If I take in account a 15% drop from flywheel to the wheels.
Think I'm asking to much from a mag case? Hell, I'm at 160HP (wheels) with my -4 mag engine now.

You are looking at a hot 3.0 or 3.2 for around $20-25K or a 3.6 for around $15K. The 3.6 will be the heaviest and need some more specialized conversion parts than the smaller motors but any engine around 250hp will need lots of cooling. You are also getting to the point where you will want/need a 915 trans since unlike the street, you wont be gentle.

I wouldn't even begin to build a 250+ hp engine on a mag case. The 2.0's I was referring to are built on sand cast alum cases.

Our 962 is built on an aluminum turbo 3.0 case. Close to 800hp on the dyno.
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Jetsetsurfshop
post Sep 5 2018, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Sep 5 2018, 11:42 AM) *

QUOTE(Jetsetsurfshop @ Sep 5 2018, 03:11 PM) *

So at 2450lbs I need to make 218HP average at the wheels
So at the flywheel thats around 255-260HP. If I take in account a 15% drop from flywheel to the wheels.
Think I'm asking to much from a mag case? Hell, I'm at 160HP (wheels) with my -4 mag engine now.

You are looking at a hot 3.0 or 3.2 for around $20-25K or a 3.6 for around $15K. The 3.6 will be the heaviest and need some more specialized conversion parts than the smaller motors but any engine around 250hp will need lots of cooling. You are also getting to the point where you will want/need a 915 trans since unlike the street, you wont be gentle.


I just noticed you two were discussing HP output for a 2.0, not a 2.7. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) I'd think 40-50 HP per cylinder shouldn't be that far out of reach.

As far as cooling goes, I have a large oil cooler and a trans cooler already set-up. I'd have to check my notes but I believe we never went above 210 degrees in Fl at a 14hour race. The trans cooler is still untested.

A 915 trans is in my future too. I just need to get my dad to part with it!
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Martin Baker
post Sep 5 2018, 02:52 PM
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WOW, there allot of talk about just building up an early aluminum case motor here! YOU should do a price check my friend...because most folks would HAVE to think quite extensively before they take out a second on their house to build an engine. They warned us about this very thing in SCCA School. The slope is long,and the grade is steep, And at the end is Bankruptcy...LOL

I am very happy to just participate!

MB
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mepstein
post Sep 5 2018, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE(Martin Baker @ Sep 5 2018, 04:52 PM) *

WOW, there allot of talk about just building up an early aluminum case motor here! YOU should do a price check my friend...because most folks would HAVE to think quite extensively before they take out a second on their house to build an engine. They warned us about this very thing in SCCA School. The slope is long,and the grade is steep, And at the end is Bankruptcy...LOL

I am very happy to just participate!

MB

Yea, the cases sell for $7-8K but building a real race motor is $ multiples of a street motor. I'm betting the 2.0's that are completely built out are $75-100K and up. It's more if you don't know what you are doing since you will blow up a couple engines just realizing what you don't know. Guys like Peter Dawe know it all and are worth every penny.
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Jetsetsurfshop
post Sep 5 2018, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE(Martin Baker @ Sep 5 2018, 12:52 PM) *

WOW, there allot of talk about just building up an early aluminum case motor here! YOU should do a price check my friend...because most folks would HAVE to think quite extensively before they take out a second on their house to build an engine. They warned us about this very thing in SCCA School. The slope is long,and the grade is steep, And at the end is Bankruptcy...LOL

I am very happy to just participate!

MB


Ive been riding this slope for quite a few years now. I have enough parts now to build three cars!!

How does one get off this train? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
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Martin Baker
post Sep 5 2018, 03:10 PM
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NO IDEA!!! Although I will say as I am aging I enjoy working on the cars less everyday...
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sixnotfour
post Sep 5 2018, 06:44 PM
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2.4 7r case ..save weight and money all uodates done... except ( oil bypass mod $200 )


or I have plenty of sandcast cases lmk machined or not bring $$$$$
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