Double relay connector, square peg in round hole Options

[troth]

Trying to track down a hard starting problem. I'm convinced it's spark related. I've been trying to track this down for over a year now. It starts every time, but sometimes it takes a few seconds or even a few minutes of cranking to get it going.

I have a feeling it's related to my dual relay not having a good connection with the plug. I found an old thread where @malcolm2 had a similar issue with his relay. Here's his picture:

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-13139-1370716659.jpg)

The plug doesn't really go up all the way into the relay. I tried shaving down the edges of the plug, but now it doesn't want to stay up. I'm afraid it's going to vibrate out, create a big short, and catch my engine on fire.

Is there a solution that doesn't involve duct tape? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) Should I try to track down a metal relay instead of the plastic one I have? I saw an NOS one a few months ago for $30, should have jumped on it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) Is there a source for the proper plug/connector?

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

1.8 only dual relay has nothing to do with the spark, but yes you do have to shave it and very carefully to be able to plug in the unit and hold it to the base without putting wire ties around the whole thing. Not a very good replacement solution that is for sure

Trying to track down a hard starting problem. I'm convinced it's spark related. I've been trying to track this down for over a year now. It starts every time, but sometimes it takes a few seconds or even a few minutes of cranking to get it going.

I have a feeling it's related to my dual relay not having a good connection with the plug. I found an old thread where @malcolm2 had a similar issue with his relay. Here's his picture:

The plug doesn't really go up all the way into the relay. I tried shaving down the edges of the plug, but now it doesn't want to stay up. I'm afraid it's going to vibrate out, create a big short, and catch my engine on fire.

Is there a solution that doesn't involve duct tape? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) Should I try to track down a metal relay instead of the plastic one I have? I saw an NOS one a few months ago for $30, should have jumped on it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) Is there a source for the proper plug/connector?

[JeffBowlsby]

Have you tried simply trimming the tabs on the relay?

That flat harness side connector housing is NLA and very HTF.

[troth]

1.8 only dual relay has nothing to do with the spark, but yes you do have to shave it and very carefully to be able to plug in the unit and hold it to the base without putting wire ties around the whole thing. Not a very good replacement solution that is for sure

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the dual relay sends power to the coil?

[troth]

I've noticed the fuel pump doesn't come on until a couple seconds after the engine gets going, it does not come on while cranking. A timing light on all 4 plug wires and the coil wire to the distributor does not flash while cranking initially, then will begin to flash intermittently, and eventually flash regularly when the engine finally gets going. I've tried a new ignition switch, and have tried spares for pretty much the entire ignition system from the coil to the spark plugs. Just cleaned the connections at the starter motor, trans ground strap, etc. Still not helping with this issue.

[troth]

Have you tried simply trimming the tabs on the relay?

That flat harness side connector housing is NLA and very HTF.

Yeah, I have those shaved down so I can get the plug in. But now the issue will be getting it to stay in. Looks like I might just need to use zip ties if new connectors are not available.

[JeffBowlsby]

Remove the wire terminals (carefully do not break the tangs), crimp them tight and reinstall in same cavities. The wire terminal itself should hold tight to the male terminal on the relay.

A zip tie is just extra insurance to keep things together.

[914Sixer]

I have an original used relay if your interested. No history or way to test it. $10 shipped.

[Big Len]

Trim the black plastic guides down and use a zip tie. Mine works fine this way.

[jim_hoyland]

BTW: I previously posted a simple procedure to test a dual relay. Only need a 9 volt battery, two short wires with alligator clips on each end, and an ohm meter.
After using the dual relays for 30+ years, the most common problem was a loose connection. I aventually eliminated the base and attached the wires directly to the dual relay spades-

[timothy_nd28]

The dual relay does not supply power to the ignition coil. Your ignition switch feeds voltage to the ignition coil. The ignition switch also feeds (momentarily) power to the dual relay that drives the fuel pump.

The dual relay is supplying power to the fuel pump, ECU and the back half of each injector. When you turn the ignition switch to the crank position, the dual relay should "click" and the fuel pump should stay on as long as you have the key in the crank position. When you release the key from the spring loaded crank position to the run position, hopefully the engine is already running, and the flap inside the airflow meter continues supplying power to the dual relay to keep it energized and fuel flowing.

You state that you see a delayed flashing on your timing light when trying to start. You also state that you observed no fuel pump action while cranking. These are two different signals that originate from the ignition switch and is screaming to be the problem, atleast to me. It could also be a issue with the relay board, even though the Ljet doesn't quite use any fuses or relays on this board, it still receives and passes voltages from the ignition switch.

When diagnosing a problem, I like to isolate suspected issues. With a few jumper wires, we can easily isolate and hone in toward the issue. I would start with putting a jumper wire from the (+) terminal of the ignition coil to the positive side of your car battery. Immediately start the car, and observe if you are now getting spark. If your spark is rectified, great, the issue could be with the relay board, wiring or the ignition switch.

To test for these 3 potential power robbing issues, remove the jumper, and take a voltmeter that is set for DC and probe one lead on the (+) side of the ignition coil while the other meter lead is on pin 30 of the ignition switch. The ignition switch should be set to the run position. You should ideally read 0 volts. Anything higher than 0.5 volts, I would remove the meter lead from the (+) side of the ignition coil and put in on pin 7 of the 12 pin connector (relay board). Again you should read 0 volts DC. If you are reading a higher voltage, move the meter lead to pin 8 of the 14 pin connector. Hopefully you read 0 VDC there. If you read a random voltage on pin 7 of the 12 pin connector but read 0 volts on pin 8 of the 14 pin connector, that tells us that your relay board is stealing power and causing the voltage drop. If both connectors are showing a voltage higher than 0, further isolation is needed but most likely the ignition switch is dropping the ball.

When you install a jumper wire and did not observe spark, then your issue could be with points, rotor, bad ground, etc. Do not leave the jumper installed. This could burn up your points or coil.

Toward the fuel side. At the dual relay, temporarily add a jumper from pin 88d to the positive battery post. Your fuel pump should immediately turn on. If your car starts right away with this jumper on, we would need to investigate pin 50 of the ignition switch.

[troth]

Thanks for all the tips. I'll give them all a shot later this week. Still getting the hang of reading the wiring diagrams as you can see.

[malcolm2]

It has been way too long since I solved this problem or even looked at the dual relay. But IIRC I think I just bought a 2nd white block that fit. Raining today, so of course, I did not drive the 914. I can look once home.

[troth]

Ok so only getting a 0.2 V drop from ignition switch to the coil with the switch in the on position. I think the problem is somewhere in the starter circuit. The car runs strong once it gets going.

But, now it seems either the problem is much, much worse, or I screwed something else up while poking around (more likely). Now when I turn the key, the starter won't even turn the engine over. It will turn the engine over very slowly and sluggishly once or twice and then nothing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[troth]

I'm getting 12 volts at the ignition switch. When I jumper the starter to the battery + it's still very sluggish to turn over and will only turn once or twice. Does this indicate a problem with the starter itself?

Maybe all the cranking killed my starter?

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

have you removed cleaned and reinstalled the transmission ground strap?


quote name='troth' date='Nov 2 2018, 10:45 AM' post='2662421']
I'm getting 12 volts at the ignition switch. When I jumper the starter to the battery + it's still very sluggish to turn over and will only turn once or twice. Does this indicate a problem with the starter itself?

Maybe all the cranking killed my starter?
[/quote]

[troth]

Yes I did that a few months ago. I'm getting good connectivity with the starter casing and battery negative terminal.

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

with a charged and well connected battery, if the car turns over slowly, it can only be then a bad starter or a semi locked up engine from sitting a long long time.

Yes I did that a few months ago. I'm getting good connectivity with the starter casing and battery negative terminal.

[troth]

with a charged and well connected battery, if the car turns over slowly, it can only be then a bad starter or a semi locked up engine from sitting a long long time.

Yes I did that a few months ago. I'm getting good connectivity with the starter casing and battery negative terminal.

Think simple is the lesson here... turns out my battery with the Walmart sticker on it was no good even though it had 12 volts. Hooked up the jumper cables and let it charge up, fired right up. Took the battery to Interstate, they said it was no good. Got the new one in and fired right up. Lesson learned.

Drives just like normal. But now I'm getting a new issue that only seems to happen at idle. Hot or cold, sitting in the driveway or at a stop light. There is an intermittent miss. Every 30ish seconds, the idle will cut out for a split second. Sometimes the car will recover and go right back to normal, sometimes it will die. It seems that revving it up just as it happens will save it from dying.

Battery voltage fluctuates a lot with rpms. Will go up to 14 when revving, and drop back down to 12 when throttle is released. Sometimes it will drop to 11 and die. I don't remember this happening before... is this normal? Or does it indicate a problem with my voltage regulator that could have killed the last battery?

[malcolm2]

12.0 is not a good number (or voltage for a healthy battery). They are called 12 volt batteries, but the should have 12.5 and higher just sitting there. The ALT sounds like it is doing it's job. 13 to 14 with the car running. So read 10ths, even 100ths when reading a VOM testing a battery.