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> Has anyone else experienced trouble, with new windshield trim clips breaking?
HansJan
post Nov 7 2018, 09:46 AM
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QUOTE(jacksun @ Nov 5 2018, 04:23 AM) *

HI, Would it be possible to change the geometry of the clip to allow installation without removing the windshield?


Totally agree with this.
Original ones are still available at Porsche?
But an improved design would really make it worth the excersize.
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ChrisFoley
post Nov 7 2018, 10:15 AM
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QUOTE(HansJan @ Nov 7 2018, 10:46 AM) *


Original ones are still available at Porsche?


Yes, readily available for less than $2.50 each.
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davep
post Nov 8 2018, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE(jsaum @ Nov 4 2018, 03:28 PM) *

Some of things I would look at is the same material being used. Are you using recycled materials or too high of a mix of reground material. Also compare where the OEM part is gated to your part. Direction of flow will determine part strength. Material can become degraded if it is being processed in to large of a machine. PM me if you have questions or can’t find a cause. I would be glad to look at some parts for you.

Very good advice. Gating is very important. Also the processing temperature and timing can cause degradation. We had a poor supplier that made polypropylene tubs that were as fragile as glass instead of being tough.
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jsaum
post Nov 8 2018, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE(Mikey914 @ Nov 5 2018, 09:40 PM) *

It appears to be a materials issue. It did shear. The pressure was transferred to the lip that is holding the body. From what I can see I believe we may have got a batch that has a higher recycled contentment than advertised we are checking the certs on the material from our vendor now.

What material are you using?
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jsaum
post Nov 8 2018, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE(Mikey914 @ Nov 4 2018, 06:39 PM) *

We did do our gating differently. And we do a a percentage of recycled material that is used. we can run virgin, and or change to a glass infused delrin. I'm thinking that we will do a preliminary and see when everything falls, possibly utilizing a better material. The feed back we have received on was mostly very good, but even if there is a small problem we will fix it. We also have an idea for a way to check fitment prior to glass being installed that would be handy too.


Plastic molecules align in the direction of flow and are strongest in that direction and weakest in the opposite. If you can tell me the grade I can take a look at the material data sheet. You’ll want a material that has a good flexural modulus. Also look at the elongation at break numbers. I would think an Nylon 66/ ST801 might be a good choice for these parts. Gf delrin might be too brittle. Any GF content isn’t going to allow the part to flex.
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Rob-O
post Nov 8 2018, 11:13 PM
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I don’t think nylon would be a good choice. I’d guess there were initially a PP, with some carbon black added in for color and to help stiffness. The flex mod numbers would be sufficient for this.
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jfort
post Nov 9 2018, 10:22 AM
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I posted about this issue earlier with regard to substandard rod bolts. Not sure of the difference between an indicated "OEM" and "O.E.M." but at least one of them is a Chinese company. Right? Which is which? How can one be sure if the part is Chinese-made? Sellers of Chinese junk should be required required to indicate country of origin.
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rhodyguy
post Nov 9 2018, 10:54 AM
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The OEM/O.E.M. thing is weird. The clip listing at pelican caught my eye. O.E.M. is the company. I think. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) What ever OEM is makes the parts for whom?
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DRPHIL914
post Nov 9 2018, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE(jsaum @ Nov 8 2018, 11:18 PM) *

QUOTE(Mikey914 @ Nov 4 2018, 06:39 PM) *

We did do our gating differently. And we do a a percentage of recycled material that is used. we can run virgin, and or change to a glass infused delrin. I'm thinking that we will do a preliminary and see when everything falls, possibly utilizing a better material. The feed back we have received on was mostly very good, but even if there is a small problem we will fix it. We also have an idea for a way to check fitment prior to glass being installed that would be handy too.


Plastic molecules align in the direction of flow and are strongest in that direction and weakest in the opposite. If you can tell me the grade I can take a look at the material data sheet. You’ll want a material that has a good flexural modulus. Also look at the elongation at break numbers. I would think an Nylon 66/ ST801 might be a good choice for these parts. Gf delrin might be too brittle. Any GF content isn’t going to allow the part to flex.
QUOTE(Rob-O @ Nov 9 2018, 12:13 AM) *

I don’t think nylon would be a good choice. I’d guess there were initially a PP, with some carbon black added in for color and to help stiffness. The flex mod numbers would be sufficient for this.

I don't know the answer but I am sure you guys will figure this out, it is definitely an issue of being too brittle and not enough flex. there is a good bit of pressure/tension on this part at some locations where the trim is holding onto this, or supposed to. I am sure its a balance of finding enough strength and yet flex with out flexing too much or it wont hold that way either, seems like common sense, but will take some more R& D to figure out where the best balance lies. I would say find some OEM(true Porsche oem not O.E.M.) to test for strength and flex. Like I said, the ones that were in place on my car were original and I ended up pulling or pushing out the pins from the back side to extract the ones that broke and reused those pins to put back in my original clips that we removed when the original glass was pulled and new was installed. Those held just fine on the re-install, but I know I have several clips , the new ones, that snapped off and are not holding the trim at at least 2 locations but once I had the corners in place and held down I was not going to pull it all back up, but I really should. and later on I probably will but installing this trim was such a bit*& I just don't want to try that again for a while and not with out sourcing all new clips and oh the trouble with pulling glass in order to do it - well I did get 2 of the broken clips pulled and new ones installed with glass in place but I don't think I could do that in all locations. I do applaud you for seeing and addressing the issue and making strides to correct it, Thank you. I know you will figure it out!.
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Mikey914
post Nov 10 2018, 12:36 PM
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We've done some research on these over the last few days and are making some modifications.

Our conclusion is that yes these can be used it's not impurities in the material that is causing the issue. There is a very slight step in the mold that is more critical in tolerance than we had realized. It actually holds the clip just slightly off the mounting surface. It it is pushed past this the entire clip rests fully on the body. This takes up some of the tolerance needed to push the aluminum clip in.

We have a solution that should work better and allow for no clip breakage when you go to install the trim.

We are revising our product to include the spacers that are flexible, and including a piece of windshield trim (that we also make) about 2" so that you can test each clip prior to windshield install. we used this technique yesterday successfully without breakage, but will be including these in a kit of 25 with the test piece for the same price as just the 19 clips.

I will have Matt post up more on this this next week.

..now back to the new airplane.
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raynekat
post Nov 10 2018, 02:04 PM
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Yes, it makes sense to offer more than the 19 clips as things do happen.

Sometimes you can lose a pin or one of the clips might have a small defect that gets missed when they are packaged up.

So it's nice to have at least 3 or 4 extra clips when you embark on this project.
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raynekat
post Nov 13 2018, 11:01 AM
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OK....round 3 for the windshield install.

This time I used the Porsche factory clips and 5/16" butyl.
Windshield went in like a breeze (guess practice makes perfect).
Using the smaller butyl cord vs the 3/8" I mistakenly used last time, the windshield sat down into the opening much lower.
It looked promising for getting the windshield trim properly snapped in this time.

I put the lower trim in 1st with the two corners attached.
All the trim clips had a nice positive snap as the trim snapped into place.
Next I went with the 2 sidepieces.
These all go in as one unit with the center piece holding them together at the top of the windshield.
Along the top of the windshield....those all snapped in easily.
It was the sides that are the challenge still.
Especially the first clip up from the lower corners.
The corner pieces hold the trim far enough away from those 1st clips up the sides that it's tough to get those to snap in.
I eventually chose to gently bend the trim in those locations such that they could more easily get into the clips.
Then it was snap, snap, snap up both side and I was done.

Zero of the factory trim clips broke.
That's one data point for ya.

My only issue is the small corner pieces don't really wrap around the trim enough.
It's easy to flatten out the little bend that's supposed to hold them onto the trim.
Same with the top center connector.
A nice re-design would be to add more material to where these small connector pieces wrap around the actual trim.

Take away from all of this.
This is not a trivial project.
It takes a lot of planning and be prepared to re-do it....unless you get extremely lucky.
Pre-install the windshield without the butyl a few times to understand where it sits amongst the clips.
Understand how high your windshield will sit depending on the size of butyl you plan to use.
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mepstein
post Nov 13 2018, 11:10 AM
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QUOTE(raynekat @ Nov 13 2018, 12:01 PM) *

OK....round 3 for the windshield install.

This time I used the Porsche factory clips and 5/16" butyl.
Windshield went in like a breeze (guess practice makes perfect).
Using the smaller butyl cord vs the 3/8" I mistakenly used last time, the windshield sat down into the opening much lower.
It looked promising for getting the windshield trim properly snapped in this time.

I put the lower trim in 1st with the two corners attached.
All the trim clips had a nice positive snap as the trim snapped into place.
Next I went with the 2 sidepieces.
These all go in as one unit with the center piece holding them together at the top of the windshield.
Along the top of the windshield....those all snapped in easily.
It was the sides that are the challenge still.
Especially the first clip up from the lower corners.
The corner pieces hold the trim far enough away from those 1st clips up the sides that it's tough to get those to snap in.
I eventually chose to gently bend the trim in those locations such that they could more easily get into the clips.
Then it was snap, snap, snap up both side and I was done.

Zero of the factory trim clips broke.
That's one data point for ya.

My only issue is the small corner pieces don't really wrap around the trim enough.
It's easy to flatten out the little bend that's supposed to hold them onto the trim.
Same with the top center connector.
A nice re-design would be to add more material to where these small connector pieces wrap around the actual trim.

Take away from all of this.
This is not a trivial project.
It takes a lot of planning and be prepared to re-do it....unless you get extremely lucky.
Pre-install the windshield without the butyl a few times to understand where it sits amongst the clips.
Understand how high your windshield will sit depending on the size of butyl you plan to use.

Thanks for posting your results and glad the 3rd time was a charm.
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