Horsepower for all the (common) Porsche engine options |
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Horsepower for all the (common) Porsche engine options |
IronHillRestorations |
Jul 22 2019, 09:45 AM
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#21
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I. I. R. C. Group: Members Posts: 6,714 Joined: 18-March 03 From: West TN Member No.: 439 Region Association: None |
Porsche factory HP numbers were minimum output, so an engine could make more but not less
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mepstein |
Jul 22 2019, 10:13 AM
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#22
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914-6 GT in waiting Group: Members Posts: 19,245 Joined: 19-September 09 From: Landenberg, PA/Wilmington, DE Member No.: 10,825 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
Great discussion gentlemen, good to have this all in one place. I think the next interesting thing to collectively have a chat about is the crossover point on horsepower versus cost building out a more powerful flat four versus swapping in a six. I know that’s apples versus oranges and how the car feels, but I think it would still be useful. For example, total cost to build 130 hp flat for versus total cost to get that same horsepower with a flat six. Cost is a difficult way to compare. You can spend 10k on rebuilding a six and not add any hp. You can also spend $10k just to fit the six into the car. The big difference between the 4 and six is it’s possible to buy a stock six from 110-275hp. A stock 4 is maxed hp at the very lowest stock 6. The stock 3.2 I just purchased is about 220. That’s a super exotic build for a 4 and would cost triple the purchase price of my 3.2. So it’s tough to talk in absolutes. |
Tdskip |
Jul 22 2019, 12:34 PM
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#23
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 3,686 Joined: 1-December 17 From: soCal Member No.: 21,666 Region Association: None |
Good points, so it sounds like there is BALLPARK a cut over point around a 2.2 or 2.4 for what the six gives you vs when you need to start to built a really expensive 4 to keep up?
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mepstein |
Jul 22 2019, 12:41 PM
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#24
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914-6 GT in waiting Group: Members Posts: 19,245 Joined: 19-September 09 From: Landenberg, PA/Wilmington, DE Member No.: 10,825 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
Good points, so it sounds like there is BALLPARK a cut over point around a 2.2 or 2.4 for what the six gives you vs when you need to start to built a really expensive 4 to keep up? I think that makes sense. I'm not trying to say a six is better than a 4 or vise versa but I think the six has the advantage of "off the rack", stock horsepower compared to a 4 with the disadvantage, unless you already have a 914-6, of needing to do a conversion. |
burton73 |
Jul 22 2019, 02:08 PM
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#25
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burton73 Group: Members Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 7,414 Region Association: Southern California |
It’s a very nice choice for a -6 conversion without the DME complications of the 3.2 or 3.6. A carbed 3.0 SC motor would be great as well once you replace the pistons and cams with ones that are not so limiting (and also replace any Dilivar studs). Some of the guys have asked what is in this Engine. Scott Kinder built it for me and this is what it has inside. 1978 3.0 SC big-port base (case, crank, rods, oil pump) Custom JE Pistons, replated Nikasil cylinders, 9.8:1 New valves, 38/37 ports (stock) in 3.2 heads ARP head studs & rod bolts GE40 "Mod-S" cams . PMO 46 carbs & manifolds J WE custom curve on SC distributor to match the carbs/cams - 930 tensioners, idler arms--all rebuilt , Otherwise just everything new or refinished, redone, rebuilt At this point we can only guess. 230-250? We will dyno it tater when it gets it finished tune at Sea level. It is at Sandy UT with E @ PMB https://vimeo.com/337332800 Bob B |
Rand |
Jul 22 2019, 02:10 PM
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#26
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Cross Member Group: Members Posts: 7,409 Joined: 8-February 05 From: OR Member No.: 3,573 Region Association: None |
It's a very slippery slope. There are 4 cylinder engines making 1000hp. Not TIVs mind you. More cylinders are going to provide longer longevity in general. But times change and technology does faster.
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mepstein |
Jul 22 2019, 02:19 PM
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#27
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914-6 GT in waiting Group: Members Posts: 19,245 Joined: 19-September 09 From: Landenberg, PA/Wilmington, DE Member No.: 10,825 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
It's a very slippery slope. There are 4 cylinder engines making 1000hp. Not TIVs mind you. More cylinders are going to provide longer longevity in general. But times change and technology does faster. My boss bought a machine shop and said the guys there are making 900hp from the Suby turbo fours. The 962 at our shop uses an air cooled 3.0 with a single turbo to get 780hp. Mid 80’s tech. |
Tdskip |
Jul 22 2019, 02:32 PM
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#28
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 3,686 Joined: 1-December 17 From: soCal Member No.: 21,666 Region Association: None |
Good discussion, and man you guys have some awesome cars.
@mepstein - that was the trade off I was trying to get to, but as you and others point out it isn’t an apples v apples thing. |
914_teener |
Jul 22 2019, 03:34 PM
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#29
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,194 Joined: 31-August 08 From: So. Cal Member No.: 9,489 Region Association: Southern California |
Great discussion gentlemen, good to have this all in one place. I think the next interesting thing to collectively have a chat about is the crossover point on horsepower versus cost building out a more powerful flat four versus swapping in a six. I know that’s apples versus oranges and how the car feels, but I think it would still be useful. For example, total cost to build 130 hp flat for versus total cost to get that same horsepower with a flat six. Total power at the crank? Also the converted power is torque. Torque is what you feel. |
thelogo |
Jul 22 2019, 04:03 PM
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#30
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Senior Member Group: Retired Members Posts: 1,510 Joined: 6-April 10 Member No.: 11,572 Region Association: None |
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Larmo63 |
Jul 22 2019, 05:04 PM
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#31
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 4,264 Joined: 3-March 14 From: San Clemente, Ca Member No.: 17,068 Region Association: Southern California |
Tom, I'll take you for a ride in my /6.
You'll want a six. Believe me. |
914_teener |
Jul 22 2019, 05:21 PM
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#32
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,194 Joined: 31-August 08 From: So. Cal Member No.: 9,489 Region Association: Southern California |
It's just not worth it to build a four for real torque or horsepower unless you are keeping it stock or near stock. A 2056 is probably your best bet. Done right 15k. There is really is no comparison to a six.
Like Larwrence said....ride in one or drive in one...end of discussion. |
mb911 |
Jul 22 2019, 07:26 PM
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#33
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 6,816 Joined: 2-January 09 From: Burlington wi Member No.: 9,892 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
Oh also want to point this out as some people get very confused from inaccurate advertising. K&N air filters add zero hp.. Don't buy into the hype it's complete b.s... I am not arm chair QB ing here this is from real data in my former life as an experimental aircraft engine builder.
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Tdskip |
Jul 22 2019, 07:30 PM
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#34
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 3,686 Joined: 1-December 17 From: soCal Member No.: 21,666 Region Association: None |
Thanks for all the discussion. I’m definitely putting the 3.2 in. I’ve just been trying to educate myself on other engine options as well ( part of figuring out what to do with the spare 2.7 L ) and so forth and wished there was one place that had everything together, so I thought I’d start the thread.
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Coondog |
Jul 22 2019, 07:57 PM
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#35
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,089 Joined: 24-September 15 From: Apple Valley Calif Member No.: 19,195 Region Association: Southern California |
Just do it.....but don’t forget about your Trans and Brakes.
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VaccaRabite |
Jul 23 2019, 08:11 AM
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#36
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En Garde! Group: Admin Posts: 13,430 Joined: 15-December 03 From: Dallastown, PA Member No.: 1,435 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
It's a very slippery slope. There are 4 cylinder engines making 1000hp. Not TIVs mind you. More cylinders are going to provide longer longevity in general. But times change and technology does faster. My boss bought a machine shop and said the guys there are making 900hp from the Suby turbo fours. Usually for just long enough for the dyno run before the engines scatter. The BS my Suby brethren (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) do to their engines (spending money they don't have on a very powerful and equally short lived motor) and then complaining bitterly about horrible Subaru reliability... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) Ring-land failure. Premature clutch failure. Asshats. "How do you have a WRX with over 100K miles and still on the original clutch? Mine failed in 20K miles..." There are not enough eyerolls. Zach |
mepstein |
Jul 23 2019, 08:28 AM
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#37
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914-6 GT in waiting Group: Members Posts: 19,245 Joined: 19-September 09 From: Landenberg, PA/Wilmington, DE Member No.: 10,825 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
It's a very slippery slope. There are 4 cylinder engines making 1000hp. Not TIVs mind you. More cylinders are going to provide longer longevity in general. But times change and technology does faster. My boss bought a machine shop and said the guys there are making 900hp from the Suby turbo fours. Usually for just long enough for the dyno run before the engines scatter. The BS my Suby brethren (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) do to their engines (spending money they don't have on a very powerful and equally short lived motor) and then complaining bitterly about horrible Subaru reliability... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) Ring-land failure. Premature clutch failure. Asshats. "How do you have a WRX with over 100K miles and still on the original clutch? Mine failed in 20K miles..." There are not enough eyerolls. Zach They are race engines. The good thing is I now have machine shop availability at reasonable prices. |
defianty |
Jul 23 2019, 08:43 AM
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#38
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 659 Joined: 9-August 06 From: Essex, UK Member No.: 6,621 Region Association: None |
Thanks for all the discussion. I’m definitely putting the 3.2 in. I’ve just been trying to educate myself on other engine options as well ( part of figuring out what to do with the spare 2.7 L ) and so forth and wished there was one place that had everything together, so I thought I’d start the thread. To educate myself on six cylinder engines I bought this book. https://www.amazon.com/Porsche-911-Red-Book...s/dp/B015QNJUCE It lists every engines spec, I've referred to it so many times my copy is starting to get a bit tired. A great reference book. |
914Toy |
Jul 23 2019, 08:51 AM
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#39
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 717 Joined: 12-November 17 From: Laguna beach Member No.: 21,596 Region Association: Southern California |
Tom, I'll take you for a ride in my /6. You'll want a six. Believe me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) |
76-914 |
Jul 23 2019, 09:32 AM
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#40
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Repeat Offender & Resident Subaru Antagonist Group: Members Posts: 13,494 Joined: 23-January 09 From: Temecula, CA Member No.: 9,964 Region Association: Southern California |
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