 Engine serial number/COA conflict?, Engine number |
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| morsmanlaw |
 Jul 31 2019, 10:45 AM
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#1
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Newbie  Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 27-August 13 From: Jenks, OK Member No.: 16,308 Region Association: Southwest Region  |
I have a '75 2.0. The COA provided by the Porsche dealer I purchased it from lists the "Engine number/type" as "46N749." The serial number on the engine is GC001357. The VIN on the COA is a match for the car. Is the "engine number/type" something other than the serial number of the engine?
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| JeffBowlsby |
Jul 31 2019, 11:48 AM
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#2
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914 Wiring Harnesses Group: Members Posts: 8,517 Joined: 7-January 03 From: San Ramon CA Member No.: 104 Region Association: None 
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The indicated engine number is obviously not correct. PCNA has in the past, corrected the COA's when they make the error. Contact PCNA at 1800PORSCHE and ask to speak with someone about a COA.
Scarlet Red...MmmMmmm.... |
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| Superhawk996 |
Jul 31 2019, 11:55 AM
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#3
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,855 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch
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Adding to follow list. I'm curious how this turns out.
I was contemplating COA for my car and the longer I thought about it I decided against since I really am interested in determination of what engine serial number came with my car. |
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| GregAmy |
Jul 31 2019, 11:59 AM
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#4
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,308 Joined: 22-February 13 From: Middletown CT Member No.: 15,565 Region Association: North East States
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So therein lies the philosophical question...if the CoA engine data for 914s is not reliable and consistent, then what's the value of of the CoA? Why try to determine if "numbers match"?
And if you do pursue that data, and the numbers don't match, but you can subsequently pursue to have it changed to match what you have, then...does it affect the value? And if you don't purse it, and the numbers match the CoA...is it worth more? Schroedinger's "engine matching". |
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| Superhawk996 |
Jul 31 2019, 12:07 PM
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#5
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,855 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch
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QUOTE(GregAmy @ Jul 31 2019, 01:59 PM)  Schroedinger's "engine matching". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) I don't know how many will get that, but, that good! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) |
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| dr914@autoatlanta.com |
Jul 31 2019, 12:19 PM
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#6
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 7,872 Joined: 3-January 07 From: atlanta georgia Member No.: 7,418 Region Association: None |
The COAs have run their course. No longer will Porsche put the engine nor transmission number on the document unless you tell them YOUR number, so finding out originality is virtually impossible. They are worried (rightly so) that as these cars become more valuable, unscrupulous people will find out the original matching engine and transmission numbers and restamp mismatches, to enhance the value of the car. You may remember the current case of Jerry Seinfield and the carrera speedster that had restamped numbers from getting the incorrect information after the porsche factory had changed the engine. There was scuttlebutt that it was a common conversion about "call so and so and get that case restamped"
So we collectors who truly want to do the right thing suffer. Right now I am trying to reestablish the identity of a 70 911 stolen and recovered in the early 70s with an assigned number and re registered (legitimately) with that number, transmission number ground off engine number severely altered, all I have is the original production number grease penciled on top of the steel dash buck. Although Porsche has the information and could help me they are mum. propriety information |
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| Superhawk996 |
Jul 31 2019, 12:25 PM
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#7
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,855 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch
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I know this is bound to piss the lawyers among us off . . . but too many lawyers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
Collectors suing collectors. OEM's afraid of their own shadows for liability reasons. It's getting bad. Reminds me of the big blow up a few years back in the wine collecting world around bogus wine's at auction and being found in collections. (Sarcasm Alert) I'm working on establishment of the Universal Waiver. Sort of like a drivers license. It's a card you carry everywhere. It legally states that you will not sue anyone and that you accept full responsibility for your own actions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) Want to to bungee jumping -- show the card. No signing 15 forms. Want to buy a car without all the airbags. Show the card. Want to buy that collector car at auction. Show the card. It'll never catch on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) |
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| morsmanlaw |
Jul 31 2019, 01:22 PM
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#8
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 27-August 13 From: Jenks, OK Member No.: 16,308 Region Association: Southwest Region |
To add to the mystery, while all of the various tags match each other and the COA, the paint code on the door jamb tag is clearly wrong. The tag shows paint code L20C, which is Nepal Orange:
 While the car has been repainted at some point, I have had it disassembled enough to know that it was never Nepal Orange. The body number on the paint tag matches the number near the right headlight inside the trunk:  The bulkhead tag, windshield pillar tag and door jamb sticker all match:     It's pretty clear this car has not been built from two others. The paint tag is wrong on the color, and the COA is wrong on the engine number. IMHO, that makes this particular 914 1 of 1, and therefore, worth megabucks. |
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| morsmanlaw |
Jul 31 2019, 01:28 PM
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#9
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 27-August 13 From: Jenks, OK Member No.: 16,308 Region Association: Southwest Region |
A couple more notes, by the way - I am always so impressed with and appreciative of the legitimately knowledgeable assistance offered by the 914 community. Getting help from the likes of Jeff Bowlby and George Hussey means a lot to us ordinary owners.
Secondly, I am a lawyer, and I hope to heck the liability card waivers never catch on, or my friends and I won't have anything to do but work on and drive our 914s. Hey, maybe that isn't such a bad idea, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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| dr914@autoatlanta.com |
Jul 31 2019, 01:35 PM
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#10
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 7,872 Joined: 3-January 07 From: atlanta georgia Member No.: 7,418 Region Association: None |
this car shown here was obviously red, but the door jamb was painted around the Karmann tag
QUOTE(morsmanlaw @ Jul 31 2019, 12:22 PM) To add to the mystery, while all of the various tags match each other and the COA, the paint code on the door jamb tag is clearly wrong. The tag shows paint code L20C, which is Nepal Orange: While the car has been repainted at some point, I have had it disassembled enough to know that it was never Nepal Orange. The body number on the paint tag matches the number near the right headlight inside the trunk: The bulkhead tag, windshield pillar tag and door jamb sticker all match: It's pretty clear this car has not been built from two others. The paint tag is wrong on the color, and the COA is wrong on the engine number. IMHO, that makes this particular 914 1 of 1, and therefore, worth megabucks. |
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| GregAmy |
Jul 31 2019, 01:37 PM
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#11
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,308 Joined: 22-February 13 From: Middletown CT Member No.: 15,565 Region Association: North East States
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Hans! Next one is up!
What color, Franz? Nepal Orange! Oh, we're out of that. What's close? Scharlachrot! Das ist gut! Ich habe das! Ja! |
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| Superhawk996 |
Jul 31 2019, 01:46 PM
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#12
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,855 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch
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QUOTE(morsmanlaw @ Jul 31 2019, 03:28 PM) Secondly, I am a lawyer, and I hope to heck the liability card waivers never catch on, or my friends and I won't have anything to do but work on and drive our 914s. Hey, maybe that isn't such a bad idea, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) I hope all the others have the good sense of humor that you have. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grouphug.gif) |
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| morsmanlaw |
Jul 31 2019, 01:48 PM
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#13
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 27-August 13 From: Jenks, OK Member No.: 16,308 Region Association: Southwest Region |
QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Jul 31 2019, 02:46 PM) QUOTE(morsmanlaw @ Jul 31 2019, 03:28 PM) Secondly, I am a lawyer, and I hope to heck the liability card waivers never catch on, or my friends and I won't have anything to do but work on and drive our 914s. Hey, maybe that isn't such a bad idea, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) I hope all the others have the good sense of humor that you have. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grouphug.gif) Nope, I'm the only one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Actually, over the course of my 35-year career, I have found most (emphasize most, not all) lawyers to be pretty good and honest folks. Just like you have bad apples in every walk of life, there are some who are total jerks, too. |
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| morsmanlaw |
Jul 31 2019, 01:49 PM
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#14
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 27-August 13 From: Jenks, OK Member No.: 16,308 Region Association: Southwest Region |
QUOTE(GregAmy @ Jul 31 2019, 02:37 PM) Hans! Next one is up! What color, Franz? Nepal Orange! Oh, we're out of that. What's close? Scharlachrot! Das ist gut! Ich habe das! Ja! I have attributed the paint tag error to an Oktoberfest hangover. |
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| oakdalecurtis |
Jul 31 2019, 02:10 PM
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#15
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Oakdalecurtis Group: Members Posts: 1,327 Joined: 5-June 15 From: Oakdale, Ca Member No.: 18,802 Region Association: Central California
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When I was a pharma rep AND an elected City politician, sometimes people at social occasions would ask me what I do. I told them “I sell drugs and I am an elected politician too”. Some would then ask me if I was a lawyer too! I gave them the same answer. I explained that each of us, sometime in our career, has to make a decision about their personal ethical floor. “I’ll do drugs, I’ll do politics, I have friends that are lawyers and a few on retainer, but I can’t go down there.” Now it’s clear where my limits lie... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) |
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| Superhawk996 |
Jul 31 2019, 02:25 PM
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#16
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,855 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch
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I gotta' clarify my point.
In no way did I mean to imply that Lawyers are the problem or aren't good people. Rather, that we as a collective society have simply lost our minds and have become so litigious that it is all costing us $$ and our personal freedom. A while back I gave away my completely rusted Miata. Well actually I paid the kid $100 to remove it from my property, just to make it completely clear that the vehicle was in no way road worthy and was in no way being "sold" or represented as usable vehicle. The fact that I've been trained to think this way sucks! (by corporate liability training) Come to think of it . . . If I pay for and order a COA but then get back a document that tells me nothing and even has errors that contradict the obvious paint code on the car . . . . can I sue Porsche? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) |
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| Beeliner |
Jul 31 2019, 04:02 PM
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 2-August 14 From: Fairfield, CT Member No.: 17,725 Region Association: North East States
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QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Jul 31 2019, 12:25 PM) I gotta' clarify my point. In no way did I mean to imply that Lawyers are the problem or aren't good people. Rather, that we as a collective society have simply lost our minds and have become so litigious that it is all costing us $$ and our personal freedom. A while back I gave away my completely rusted Miata. Well actually I paid the kid $100 to remove it from my property, just to make it completely clear that the vehicle was in no way road worthy and was in no way being "sold" or represented as usable vehicle. The fact that I've been trained to think this way sucks! (by corporate liability training) Come to think of it . . . If I pay for and order a COA but then get back a document that tells me nothing and even has errors that contradict the obvious paint code on the car . . . . can I sue Porsche? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) I really really like paying the kid $100 to take the car away... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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| morsmanlaw |
Jul 31 2019, 04:06 PM
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#18
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 27-August 13 From: Jenks, OK Member No.: 16,308 Region Association: Southwest Region |
QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Jul 31 2019, 03:25 PM) I gotta' clarify my point. In no way did I mean to imply that Lawyers are the problem or aren't good people. Rather, that we as a collective society have simply lost our minds and have become so litigious that it is all costing us $$ and our personal freedom. A while back I gave away my completely rusted Miata. Well actually I paid the kid $100 to remove it from my property, just to make it completely clear that the vehicle was in no way road worthy and was in no way being "sold" or represented as usable vehicle. The fact that I've been trained to think this way sucks! (by corporate liability training) Come to think of it . . . If I pay for and order a COA but then get back a document that tells me nothing and even has errors that contradict the obvious paint code on the car . . . . can I sue Porsche? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) Hey, we're all good here. I just wish the temps would drop so I can drive my 914 more. |
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