Questions for the Collective Options

[bkrantz]

I would appreciate some answers and other feedback--don't be shy.

A month ago I brought home a 1973 2 liter. The car came with a COA that shows the engine and trans as original, as is the color. It has all the original performance/appearance parts, including 5 good Fuchs wheels. It was not running when I bought it, but did run earlier in the year. My initial assessment showed some minor rust and body issues, but it looked solid.

Now after a month of stripping down, I have found more rust, mostly in the floor. The areas under both seats are either very thin or with some small holes, and both front floor corners have 4 inch holes. The upper fire wall behind the passenger seat has rusted through, as has the right engine shelf. The top of the hell hole has extreme scale, but no holes (until I really dug in with my chisel). And I found a couple of small holes in the inner fender where the battery tray (replaced) attaches. On the plus side, the longs are very solid and clean, inner and outer, on both sides, as is the lower fire wall where all the cable fittings attach.

Other body issues: the front and rear right fenders were replaced at some time, as was the right side of the front panel (but the floor and inner right fender are original). The groove for the front trunk gasket is messed up in places, but not rusty. The rear trunk and engine lid hinge mounts are messed up.

The windshield was glued and sealed with at least 4 different kinds of stuff. All the bright trim, and the bumpers, were painted black--and the front bumper looks repaired under the paint. And the black carries over with undercoat sprayed in the engine compartment, both trunks, and passenger area.

Inside, the seats were recovered--not stock but look pretty good. The dash and firewall cover look good. The door cards are uncut, but somebody cut speakers into the sides of the center console.

One final observation: the more I take things apart, the more ghetto repairs I find, with non-stock, mixed hardware, home-made brackets and wiring, and cheats.

First question: should I continue with my plan to restore to a nice running but not 100% vintage state? I kept looking for a place to stop as things came apart, but in my quest to remove all the sketchy stuff I am approaching a bare shell.

Second question: is this car worth the effort to replace the floor, patch the other rust, and straighten various bends and mis-fits? I know I will end up with a complete paint job, and replacing most of the rubber and trim. And none of this even considers the drive train.

Final question: if I end up with the body shell stripped bare, what's the logical approach and order of work, considering the floor, local patching around the hell hole and fire wall, and work on the front and rear?

[Superhawk996]

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Welcome to the world of 914s and the crap previous owners did to these cars when they literally cost more to keep running than they were worth.

I'm going to go out on a limb based on your garage space and say you have the space, tools and resources to fix it. So just dig in and fix it.

There are very few cars out there that don't have skeletons in the closet.

When you are done you have a reliable, known car.

The other option is go buy a $25k California car and hope for a better starting point. But, it will have skeletons too! There have been many $50k cars that still have skeletons. Typically as you move up in price point the concern items get smaller but there are still details that need work. Your call on where to start.

In my case I started with a rust mobile because I'm in the Midwest and don't mind metal fab work but I do value having a known commodity when I'm done. There are days I question my strategy but I really value having things done right.

Many of the issues that you'll see on this site are the result of 1/2 ass fixes. Old wiring needs to be taken care of. Drive trains need complete rebuilds, etc. If you take the time to fix it right, it will last another 45 years with good reliability. If you duct tape and bailing wire it, it will be unreliable for anything more than short drives between problems.

[jimkelly]

this is going to be a restoration to watch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

please please please, post a lot of pics (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

have you settled on a budget for this build? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

rebuild engine(mcmark), trans(dr evil), suspension(pmb), brakes(pmb), all new rubber(914rubber), wheels, peddle cluster, guages, misc (bdstone914), etc etc

idk, strip everything, fix, paint, buy lots of parts, assemble ?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

[cassmcentee]

Thanks for posting this!
I'm in the same boat with you...
You just described my exact situation. (though I might have more floorpan rust)
I'm currently rebuilding the drivetrain motor/trans figuring that is the most INSPIRATIONAL place to start.
Constantly perusing the forum for information that will be needed as i progress.
Good Luck and Cheers!
Cass

[mepstein]

Some of the best looking cars are bondo queens under the paint. So at least you know what you have. If you have the skill and patience, work the repairs, one at a time, until you have a solid chassis but remember, perfection is the enemy of good. These cars are great drivers so don't get so caught up that you don't get it back on the road and have some fun.

[SirAndy]

... based on your garage space and say you have the space, tools and resources to fix it. So just dig in and fix it ...

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[914_7T3]

Fix it! Not too many '73 2.0 matching numbers survivors out there. As long as you have the time and resources to do the job, go for it!

Here is my story of going down the slippery slope

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=308753

[bbrock]

... based on your garage space and say you have the space, tools and resources to fix it. So just dig in and fix it ...

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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) +1 If you like doing this kind of work and have the ability, then yes, it is worth it. Parts and materials to repair the metal are not that expensive, it is the labor costs that put these projects upside down.

The only part of your description that causes me worry is that the right fenders were replaced. Makes me wonder if it was in an accident, so I would at least take lots of measurements to make sure it is straight. Everything else sounds pretty standard.

I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a 914 COA that verifies the transmission. Most just come back with 'Information Not Available' or something like that. Interesting to hear that information DOES exist.

[rjames]

Agree with Brent. Make sure the tub is straight before going any further.

[76-914]

I'd say measure it to know what hidden body repairs await you besides those you know of. Andy has those measurements and points posted somewhere here. Maybe "914 Info"? If those are good enough for you, the pans nor that upper area behind the psg seat are that difficult. Those 4" holes in the front that you mention; is there one on each side and about 4" in diameter? Measure that trunk hinge location about 6 times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) I got mine about 1/4" off and need to resolve that next time the engine is out. Back to your 914..............If later you find the shell isn't worth the effort you've pulled the good stuff and can easily transition to another shell or sell the parts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[bbrock]

Andy has those measurements and points posted somewhere here. Maybe "914 Info"?

Yep. '914 Info' link in the upper right corner of this page.

[iankarr]

perfection is the enemy of good. These cars are great drivers so don't get so caught up that you don't get it back on the road and have some fun.

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The more concours/perfect you want the car to be, the longer and more expensive the restoration. It's easy to slide down the slippery slope of perfection, so what I like to do is set either time or money deadlines (or both). Then work backwards to keep the car on track and on budget. If you don't do that, you'll be saying "might as well" a whole lot...and the car is just about guaranteed to stay off the road indefinitely. And when it does get back on the road, you'll either be reluctant to drive it...ot love driving it so much that it quickly won't be "perfect" anymore.

As for what to do first, I'd remove the glass and tackle the structural and body to prep for paint. Then while the car is in paint, work on the engine. When the car comes back from paint, install the wire harness, steering components, airbox and controls, fuel tank and lines, front and rear suspension, wheels and brakes. Then put the engine in (or if you have room, keep it out till the very end.). Then do the interior, starting with the dash top (which requires the glass to be out). Put the glass in when the interior is complete, then connect everything up and drive. No big deal...you'll have it done in a weekend (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif).

As others have said, you seem to have all the raw materials, and by the questions you're asking, this doesn't seem to be your first rodeo. Definitely go for it!

[type2man]

My own opinion, and this after years of restoring cars, just buy a really nice 914 unless youre in your 20's and have plenty of time to tinker.

Yes, you wont be able to tell everyone at the car show that you built it yourself but the reality is, you might not have the talent it takes to lay the paint, upholster the seats, and rebuild the engine, so bottom line when youre at a show, you have to confess that someone else did half the work and you just assembled it.

Why spend 3 years building a car and spending countless nights suffering in the garage (unless thats your thing) I'd rather spend 3 years driving something that someone else restored and is selling for a loss. And even then, you can still tinker with a perfect car on the weekends personalizing it. My 2 cents

[DickSteinkamp]

If you are a competent mig welder, consider it. But even then, make a CONSERVATIVE budget. You will be upside down in this car no matter what (not necessarily a bad thing). A detailed budget will give you an idea of how much. You can then decide if it is worth it.

[bkrantz]

Thanks, everyone--I much appreciate your replies. Some answers (and more questions).

I do have the space, tools, and experience, though the last true restoration I did was 20 years ago. And I sort of have the time, since I am semi-retired with lots of flexibility in my schedule.

I understand and agree about how almost all older cars have hidden surprises, and fixing something correctly is a good way to know what I have.

I don't have a budget (yet), but I have thought about how far upside down I can tolerate (with an alternate view below). Let's say I finish this by stripping, fixing, and painting the body, rebuild the engine and most mechanicals, install the original decent interior, and restore or replace all the trim and rubber. This would not be a concours product (I hope I can resist trying for that). What would a fair value be?

I worry about finding replacement fenders front and rear on the right, but the door looks untouched (and original), as do the front and rear interior panels. My guess is that the car got dinged mildly on both corners, maybe in separate incidents. I do plan to measure as much as I can and check the alignment before going much further.

After talking with my son today (and all the feedback so far from 914World) if feel encouraged. My son asked the key question: is this what I want to do with my time? Right now, I say yes. And I am willing to pay not just for the result, but for the "fun times" ahead.

[DickSteinkamp]

Hagerty values a "Good" one at $20k. Their description of "Good" sounds like what you might end up with.

BaT has sold 120 914s. Looks like they are clustered in the $15-20k range. Find some of the most recent sales there that closely match what you will end up with.

[type2man]

If you want to tackle it, I would find a super nice shell to start with, should be easy to find under 5k.

[raynekat]

Looks like you've got quite a project on your hands there.
Good luck.

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

you are into it this far and your labor is free, so why not?

[BuddyV]

Cut your losses.... sell it to someone looking to build a race car..... look for a driver-quality car and DRIVE IT!!!!!

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