Clutch, oil-return tube O-rings done--lessons learned, etc, And a big THANKS to "wndsrfr"! Options

[anderssj]

Good morning!

After a couple of semi-crappy experiences with shops in the local area, I've decided to take the plunge and fix my slipping clutch and leaky oil-return tubes myself--with considerable help, guidance, and moral support from "wndsrfr." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)

As a first step, I'm cataloging all the parts, bits, and pieces I think I'll need--but if it looks like I've left anything out, please let me know.

1. Clutch kit from Pelican--the one that includes a new flywheel. I've gone back through all the maintenance receipts and while I see at least one re-surfacing, it looks like the flywheel has never been replaced. I figure it's time...

2. Flywheel/crankcase seal (black Sabo piece from GoWesty).

3. I have a set of black Viton o-rings from a friend here on 914world, so I should be good to go. That said, should I consider new push-rod tubes (like the Dansk ones from Pelican)? I like the thought of the stainless ones from Chris at tangerine, but $$$--on the other hand, Christmas is only a little over a month away... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif)

4. A case of Guiness.

5. New valve cover gaskets (OEM cork? Or the thicker ones from Mikey?)

6. New copper heat exchanger seals/gaskets (Victor Reinz @ Pelican?).

7. New copper flange nuts for heat exchanges from BelMetric (NCF8X12 - Copper Flange Nut): https://www.belmetric.com/hex-with-flange-c...-nut-p-189.html

8. New 8mm Schnorr washers for CVs (and maybe a couple of new CV bolts just in case).

8. A case of Guiness.

9. I'll probably do new motor and transmission mounts "while I'm in there." Looks like original 914 motor mounts are still available, but not trans mounts. Thinking of using 911 "sport" engine mounts (911-375-043-00) for the trans, but open to recommendations (Wevo "black cushion"?)

10. Transmission leaks slightly from the big black cover at the shift console, so will do the o-ring and seal while the transmission is out.

That's what I have so far. Am I missing anything? Do I need more Guiness? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

Appreciate your inputs (the support and expertise here on this site is amazing)! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Thanks in advance,

Steve A-

[Tdskip]

None of this is hard, and everything’s been pretty well-documented already although we would all encourage you to ask any questions that you have along the way.

[914Sixer]

Transmission mounts are available. Recommend the solid 914-6 mount A little more but worth it. PartsGeek $30.78 Nothing better than original fit. Might also consider sending transmission to the good DR EVIL since it is already out. Might be worth it if you have over 100k on it. Go for the 914 silicone valve cover gaskets.

[Chi-town]

Good morning!

After a couple of semi-crappy experiences with shops in the local area, I've decided to take the plunge and fix my slipping clutch and leaky oil-return tubes myself--with considerable help, guidance, and moral support from "wndsrfr." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)

As a first step, I'm cataloging all the parts, bits, and pieces I think I'll need--but if it looks like I've left anything out, please let me know.

1. Clutch kit from Pelican--the one that includes a new flywheel. I've gone back through all the maintenance receipts and while I see at least one re-surfacing, it looks like the flywheel has never been replaced. I figure it's time...
Available cheaper elsewhere, find the part numbers do the search

2. Flywheel/crankcase seal (black Sabo piece from GoWesty).
Available cheaper elsewhere, find the part numbers do the search

3. I have a set of black Viton o-rings from a friend here on 914world, so I should be good to go. That said, should I consider new push-rod tubes (like the Dansk ones from Pelican)? I like the thought of the stainless ones from Chris at tangerine, but $$$--on the other hand, Christmas is only a little over a month away... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif)

If the stock ones are in good shape there is no reason to replace them

4. A case of Guiness. - Bevmo has the best price

5. New valve cover gaskets (OEM cork? Or the thicker ones from Mikey?)
OEM cork w/ a little hylomar and they'll never leak

6. New copper heat exchanger seals/gaskets (Victor Reinz @ Pelican?).
Available cheaper elsewhere, find the part numbers do the search

7. New copper flange nuts for heat exchanges from BelMetric (NCF8X12 - Copper Flange Nut): https://www.belmetric.com/hex-with-flange-c...-nut-p-189.html
You want these to be 11mm head, Pierside parts in HB has them in stock

8. New 8mm Schnorr washers for CVs (and maybe a couple of new CV bolts just in case).
Bell metric

8. A case of Guiness. - 1st step is admitting you have a problem (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

9. I'll probably do new motor and transmission mounts "while I'm in there." Looks like original 914 motor mounts are still available, but not trans mounts. Thinking of using 911 "sport" engine mounts (911-375-043-00) for the trans, but open to recommendations (Wevo "black cushion"?)

Use the sport mounts, the wevo are a waste of money on a 914 since there really is no torque

10. Transmission leaks slightly from the big black cover at the shift console, so will do the o-ring and seal while the transmission is out.

That's what I have so far. Am I missing anything? Do I need more Guiness? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

Appreciate your inputs (the support and expertise here on this site is amazing)! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Thanks in advance,

Steve A-

[PanelBilly]

The gasket for the cv joints. I assume the beer is for the guys who will be watching you work. You really need a larger selection.

[rjames]

If you're replacing the pushrod seals, you may want to just get new tubes, too. When replacing the seals, I couldn't remove mine without destroying the tubes. It took vise grips to get them to budge, and even with those it wasn't easy. Was almost humorous. Almost. I got pushrod tubes from a VW supplier. Fairly cheap and did the job.

Not sure what the Pelican clutch kit includes, but make sure you get new flywheel bolts and also the tool that keeps the flywheel from moving when loosening or tightening the bolts.

Make sure you have the correct tool to remove the CV bolts.
Torque wrench for flywheel bolts and CV bolts

Transmission linkage cone set-screw (you'll be removing the shift rod, and the screws should not be re-used).

New rear main seal and a dial indicator to check end play before installing the new seal.
There's a tool available for installing the RMS, but if you're careful you can use a piece of PVC pipe cut to match, or a flat block wood for tapping it in straight.

Maybe new transmission fluid if it hasn't been changed in a long time.

And since you're fixing leaks- check the oil cooler to see if it's leaking. Seals are cheap, and the job can be done with the engine in (with lots of patience).

Have fun!

[mepstein]

MAP torch

[porschetub]

If you're replacing the pushrod seals, you may want to just get new tubes, too. When replacing the seals, I couldn't remove mine without destroying the tubes. It took vise grips to get them to budge, and even with those it wasn't easy. Was almost humorous. Almost. I got pushrod tubes from a VW supplier. Fairly cheap and did the job.

Not sure what the Pelican clutch kit includes, but make sure you get new flywheel bolts and also the tool that keeps the flywheel from moving when loosening or tightening the bolts.

Make sure you have the correct tool to remove the CV bolts.
Torque wrench for flywheel bolts and CV bolts

Transmission linkage cone set-screw (you'll be removing the shift rod, and the screws should not be re-used).

New rear main seal and a dial indicator to check end play before installing the new seal.
There's a tool available for installing the RMS, but if you're careful you can use a piece of PVC pipe cut to match, or a flat block wood for tapping it in straight.

Maybe new transmission fluid if it hasn't been changed in a long time.

And since you're fixing leaks- check the oil cooler to see if it's leaking. Seals are cheap, and the job can be done with the engine in (with lots of patience).

Have fun!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) I haven't seen a clutch kit that includes the new flywheel bolts,on my last engine build I bought new flywheel bolts from Fat Performance,a fraction of the price of original ,these are sold as heavy duty and from memory they were $15 for 5.
Don't forget to buy the metal washer that go's behind the flywheel bolts,this is a "one use" part,make sure you check the thrust bearing in the end of the crank ,I usually clean them out and relube if ok.
Changing the input shaft seal is a good move also,they can look ok and then fail latter,ask me how I know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) ,not worth ruining a clutch plate for such a cheap part,mine wasn't worn but had gone rock hard a split when I removed it.
Good luck.

[anderssj]

Thanks! I'm adding these things to my shopping list.

BTW, John likes Guiness, hence the over-supply. I'm more of an IPA guy myself (my son says IPA is like the "boomer's" pumpkin spice).

Thanks again!

[Mark Henry]

As far as I know the T4 flywheel bolts are not stretch bolts (/6 bolts are stretch bolts), I've reused them for years without issue, my 2600cc engine has reused bolts.

Checking endplay is a good idea, use the old metal washer to do the checks and then use the new washer as your last step.

Deformed PR tubes can be reformed by pressing a socket through them. I usually only toss them if they have rust damage. The head and case bores must be spotless clean. I use Dow 55 O-ring lube, but loctite PST 592 is a good alternative. As I install the PR tube I give it a slight turning action being careful not to cut the O-ring as I install.

A new pilot bearing and felt washer/seal should be installed.

The rest is pretty well covered above.

[bdstone914]

@anderssj date='Nov 22 2019


I have replated pushrod tubes for about haft of the new price.
You also need the crush plate under the flywheel bolts, felt washer and pilot camshaft guide bearing.
Bruce

[anderssj]

@anderssj date='Nov 22 2019


I have replated pushrod tubes for about haft of the new price.
You also need the crush plate under the flywheel bolts, felt washer and pilot camshaft guide bearing.
Bruce

Thanks Bruce! I'll PM you in a few days...

Obviously I need to look up a few parts whose name I don't know ("pilot camshaft guide bearing") (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) Is that the 111-105-313 pilot bearing?

And the crush plate is the one with the 5 holes, correct?

Still looking for transmission mounts. Seems like the only OEM style out there now are Uro-branded parts... May go with Wevo with black cushions.

Also, any recommendations on which kind/brand of input shaft seal to use?

Thanks again!

Steve A-

[mepstein]

Just use 911 engine sport mounts for the trans. At most, you have to ovalize the mounting holes a bit.

[anderssj]

Just use 911 engine sport mounts for the trans. At most, you have to ovalize the mounting holes a bit.

Thanks, good suggestion. Is it PN 911-375-043-07? Would like to stay with OEM parts if possible.

Thanks again!

[mepstein]

Just use 911 engine sport mounts for the trans. At most, you have to ovalize the mounting holes a bit.

Thanks, good suggestion. Do you have a PN? Would like to stay OEM parts if possible.

Thanks again!

964-375-043-81

WEVO also makes them -https://www.wevo.com/Products/ChassisProducts/WevoChassisProducts-914SSTransMounts.htm

[anderssj]

And an 8mm 12-point/triple-square drive for the CV bolts....

[anderssj]

After reading a number of old threads on the subject,the copper-clad locking exhaust nuts from Bel-Metric may not be the solution I'd hoped for. It seems that the locking feature has a tendency to pull the exhaust stud if/when the nut is removed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Since I'm unable to find the internal heli-coil type nuts that were original to our cars, I'll probably get some these that others here have recommended:

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/ACN-Flanged-R...-p/acn-nuts.htm

Any feedback on your experience would be appreciated as I'm going to start ordering parts tomorrow.

Thanks for all of the advice and recommendations!

Steve A-

[anderssj]

Finished up the clutch and pushrod tube 0-ring work yesterday (Friday), and thought an “after action report” might be appropriate.

First and most important: A big THANK YOU to John (“wndsrfr”) Perry. I wouldn’t/couldn’t have tackled this job without your help and guidance. I learned a lot, and enjoyed working with you even more.

Second, some of the things we found on disassembly were kind of surprising—especially since these items had all been done by “professionals.” Some samples:

a. Every valve was too tight/too little clearance. 2L engine spec calls for .006”/.008” clearance for intake/exhaust valves, respectively. Most were at a tight .004” with a couple less than that (last adjustment was done buy a VA Beach shop less than 2K miles ago).
b. Valve covers were installed upside down, with gaskets RTV’d to the covers (when correctly installed, the stamped VW logo should be upside down). Same shop that did the valve adjustment.
c. Transmission main-shaft seal was cocked/pinched, with damage to the outside circumference. We noticed it as soon as we removed the TO bearing, so it would have been obvious to the technician that installed it (sorry, I should have taken a picture).
d. NO copper sealing rings between heads/exhaust ports and heat exchangers.

There were others, but you get the idea…

Third, a few lessons learned:
a. The Haynes manual has it right, “Do not be mean [cheap] about replacements. If anything is suspect, it will be a very false economy to use it again.” (pg 69, para 12)
b. I was glad to have all of the parts I thought I might possibly need on hand, even if some weren't used (e.g., an assortment of different size shims, etc.).
b. Having some spares of the more critical replacement parts "just in case" was a cheap way to get additional peace of mind. I bought an extra rear main seal, main shaft seal, flywheel o-ring, flywheel bolt locking ring, copper exhaust gaskets, etc.—basically, anything you might screw up during the repair—especially the copper exhaust gaskets:



c. Measure/mic-out any shims or other precision parts before installing. Of the four crankshaft shims I ordered, two were swapped/sent in mis-marked envelopes when shipped.
d. Check the play and clearance on the clutch arm before putting the transmission back in the car. I assumed that since I was installing all new parts (including the flywheel) I wouldn’t need a shim/washer under the pivot ball. WRONG! Without the washer, the clutch arm was < 1/8” from the transmission case at full throw. Adding the washer under the ball (as John had suggested in the first place), gave it the additional clearance it needed.
e. Remind yourself (or ask John to remind you) that solving the inevitable problems that arise—like removing a stuck seal or a broken screw or making a decision to remove and reinstall the transmission—“require great peace of mind.”
f. Related to the above, if you don't feel good about something, recheck it, fix it, or whatever, until you're comfortable with it. I COULD have left the transmission installed and lived with the limited clearance for a while, but I’d have never been happy with it.
g. Get as much light in the work area as you can…and put an LED bulb in your drop light (because it WILL get dropped—multiple times). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

There were lots of other things too, but I’ve gone on long enough for one post. That said, I would be happy to answer any specific questions about parts used and who sourced them, etc.

Thanks again to John, and all the others here who offered advice and support--you guys are great!

Steve A-

[porschetub]

Sounds like a VW T1 shop set those valve clearances ,sounds like you had a bad experience with them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) .

[90quattrocoupe]

There were lots of other things too, but I’ve gone on long enough for one post.
Steve A-

Not too long of a post. Down the road, someone will be doing the same thing, they will find your post, and it will help them out, with less searching for them to do.

Greg W.