Distributor Shaft Alignment, Small sector to Left/driver side? or Right/pass. side? Options

[Gatornapper]

My bad, as I said. I had put dizzy in when engine was at TDC exhaust stroke.

Has been corrected. As have the cap wires - all are correctly oriented now.

If the engine is at TDC on #1, and the dist drive is out 180*, for sure, then if you install the distributor, where ever the rotor is pointing would be #1 TDC. Mark that spot on the distributor body lip. If the drive is out 180* the wires are off 180*. The cap only goes on one way.

[Gatornapper]

SuperHawk -et al -

"Easiest way is to pull valve cover. Look at the valves. When both are closed and you're at TDC you know your on the compression stroke. There is no possibility of being 180 out if both valves are closed."

Please bear with me here. I know this is the normal way to determine TDC on the compression stroke - I have used this method for decades. But usually the valves can be more easily accessed than they are on the 914 engine.

But I believe there is an easier way - and if I am wrong, would love for anyone to explain to me why.

When the engine is on TDC of the compression stroke, the rotor will be in only one possible position, with a few degrees difference allowing for differences in timing.

When the engine is on TDC of the exhaust stroke (1 revolution from TDC compression), the position of the rotor in the dizzy will be 180 degrees (1/2 revolution) from where it is on the compression stroke. I.e., pointed in the opposite direction. How can it be otherwise?

If true, then one should be able to tell whether the engine is on the compression TDC by seeing where the rotor is positioned when the spark fires.

Next question: shouldn't all Type 4 engines have the rotor pointing in the same direction (within a few degrees) when cylinder/plug #1 fires?

Thanks for the patience and forebearance with my questions.

GN

Thanks Garland.....

Perhaps I'm not on TDC, not on compression stroke - but one rev out...

Will check later today......

GN

It is not possible for a backfire to destroy the gear interface between the crank and the distributor.

Easiest way is to pull valve cover. Look at the valves. When both are closed and you're at TDC you know your on the compression stroke. There is no possibility of being 180 out if both valves are closed.

Setting aside all other nonsene of manual, if you set to TDC #1 based on piston and valve position, and then align the distributor into the notches such that the rotor is pointing at Cylinder #1 spark plug terminal, it will be correct.

[sixnotfour]

boxer engine so 1 of 2 cyl.s can be at TDC... what you say is correct if everything is correct, your having troubles , so its best to start at square one......

There is a six build where 2 shops could not figure out why it ran so low on HP and acted strange,
The engine was tore apart ..but after reading what the symptoms where , and what nobody ever did was check the cam timing. on a six its easy to time one cam 180 out, runs , half power and does some minor weird things,,,Just an example of not starting at square one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Gatornapper]

Thank you.

Totally agree - trying to get to ground zero.

Tell me this: how can an engine be running PERFECTLY one day, the next day is missing, backfiring, barely running; then for a week starts immediately and runs perfectly for just under a minute - then quits and will not re-start; then won't start at all - and distributor position has changed - when no one has touched the engine?

Same fuel was in tank for 2 weeks until after a week of not starting I "went to ground zero" on fuel system completely purging system, new fuel filters, 2nd one added just before carbs, perfect 3psi fuel pressure - then I conclude problem is ignition.

Most ignition is brand new, so I make it all brand new. Still won't start.

GN

boxer engine so 1 of 2 cyl.s can be at TDC... what you say is correct if everything is correct, your having troubles , so its best to start at square one......

There is a six build where 2 shops could not figure out why it ran so low on HP and acted strange,
The engine was tore apart ..but after reading what the symptoms where , and what nobody ever did was check the cam timing. on a six its easy to time one cam 180 out, runs , half power and does some minor weird things,,,Just an example of not starting at square one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Gatornapper]

Question:

Is this not the correct position for the rotor on every 914 for TDC on #1?

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-13474-1463348898_thumb.jpg)

GN

[sixnotfour]

rotate your distributor to line up with rotor,,, you will be close, if at tdc #1

[theer]

Question:

Is this not the correct position for the rotor on every 914 for TDC on #1?

GN

With a stock dizzy, I believe you are correct.

I had a helluva time trying to figure out 1-3-4-2 wire orientation on an 009 or 050 cap, where the rotor didn't point in the same direction as stock.. the mark on the case was at a different spot on the dizzy case, so TDC was clear, but the wires needed to be properly oriented on the cap.

[Gatornapper]

Did that some time ago.

Engine is firing #1 when rotor is under the #1 tower, and timing light verifies that at starting rpm - firing is occurring at TDC where I did static set of timing.

BUT, whereas my #1 tower was located exactly as in the photo in post #25 a month ago, it is now located as in the pic in post #6, about 80 deg. clockwise of the pic in post #25. The distributor driveshaft has not been touched. and the slot in the DD and the dizzy can only fit in one way.

How did that change occur?

TIA,

GN

rotate your distributor to line up with rotor,,, you will be close, if at tdc #1

[rhodyguy]

is that a picture of the distributor in your car?

[theer]

Sorry in advance if I’m missing something or if this is obvious... but the dizzy in post 6 is different from the one in post 25. Post 25 looks stock (with vacuum advance); post 6 has no vacuum can, might be an 009 or 050 centrifugal advance. This is exactly what I was talking about in my post above.

So, first make sure you have the right cap for your dizzy (again sorry if obvious)

The rotor position is fixed once the dizzy is locked in, so turn the base (and with it the cap) so that the rotor points at the #1 tower/wire at TDC. Then make sure the other wires follow in firing order around the cap. IIRC, the centrifugal advance dizzy needs more advance than stock.

[rhodyguy]

The one pictured that has the circles is for a Djet system. A Ljet dist has no trigger point wiring provision. You want a part number ending in AB. I'm confused.

[Gatornapper]

Post 6 is mine - BEFORE I got the body rotated properly - BUT the position of the rotor did not change, as that is determined by the position of distributor driveshaft.

The pic on post 25 I got off this forum as I wanted a pic not of the distributor but of the rotor position at TDC. Yes, the distributor is different, but I am not concerned with that. My dizzy is a 178 009 that apparently the Porsche dealer put int when they installed the Webers and many say is not good for this engine. I am soon replacing it with a nice 1.8 dizzy I just got off eBay that has vacuum advance. It is an 0 231 181 009/022 905 205 AA.

No one has yet answered my question of the position of the rotor at TDC - it must be the same on all 914 - 4's as I see it, and I believe it, when facing the front of the car from the rear, should point to about 11 o'clock, and that's where the cap tower to Plug #1 must also be at TDC. That's where it is in the pic I posted on post #25 and the reason I posted that pic.

I believe that is where my #1 cap tower was located before I started having engine problems. But now, at TDC, the rotor is pointed to about 1 o'clock.

HOW DID IT CHANGE? Could the gear on the bottom of the dizzy shaft slip? I cannot see how it could.

And is not 11 o'clock (from the rear) the position of all rotors and the #1 cap tower on all 914's?

TIA,

GN

The one pictured that has the circles is for a Djet system. A Ljet dist has no trigger point wiring provision. You want a part number ending in AB. I'm confused.

[injunmort]

this last pic of rotor has it pointed at #2. that is not where it should be to static time. your tins are stamped with each cylinder # and the firing order is stamped up on right side tin by fan housing. use the factory stampings for position, don't reinvent the wheel. put engine at tdc on cyl #1. timing mark on fan and flywheel should be in the apertures. clock distributor so that rotor is pointing at cyl #1. ( 1 position back from in the photo) set your points at this point and you should be close. you only need to time one cylinder correctly then the engineering magic occurs on the other three. forget about the marks on the distributor body, the rotor contact is the index.

[Superhawk996]

Thank you.

Totally agree - trying to get to ground zero.

Tell me this: how can an engine be running PERFECTLY one day, the next day is missing, backfiring, barely running; then for a week starts immediately and runs perfectly for just under a minute - then quits and will not re-start; then won't start at all - and distributor position has changed - when no one has touched the engine?


GN

I'm going to stick my neck out with a crazy theory. Distributor was never properly engaged to the drive. Thermal expansion may have had it "hooked" properly and then when temperature changed, it disconnnected and "changed" its position despite no one touching it.

Way out there, but, if it actually did move out of time, with no one touching it, either the pinch bolt was loose, or the distributor drive was never properly engaged to the gear driven piece below it.

Also check the bottom of the distributior "cog", tang, drive, or whatever you want to call it. Make sure that is pinned to the rotor shaft. I don't have one in front of me but I think there is a roll pin or something in there to hold that "cog" to the distributor shaft.

DO NOT assume the gear driven piece down in the case below the distributor is set correctly. That installs 1st before the distributor. That gear driven directly off the crank is what determines the timing relationship. If the gear is in wrong, you'll never get the distributor rotor itself into the right position.

[theer]

No one has yet answered my question of the position of the rotor at TDC - it must be the same on all 914 - 4's as I see it, and I believe it, when facing the front of the car from the rear, should point to about 11 o'clock, and that's where the cap tower to Plug #1 must also be at TDC. That's where it is in the pic I posted on post #25 and the reason I posted that pic.

I believe that is where my #1 cap tower was located before I started having engine problems. But now, at TDC, the rotor is pointed to about 1 o'clock.

HOW DID IT CHANGE? Could the gear on the bottom of the dizzy shaft slip? I cannot see how it could.

And is not 11 o'clock (from the rear) the position of all rotors and the #1 cap tower on all 914's?

The answer is NO. The rotor in the 009 points to different "clock" position than the rotor in a stock dist. It's still the #1 cylinder, though, so all that matters is that you have the wires matched up to the rotor's position underneath.
Hope that helps.

[injunmort]

I don't know what you guys mean by different clock position?
tdc, compression on #1 is only one place, valves closed, tdc, timimg marks on both fan and flywheel in the holes visable. I just put a new 009 in an engine today, goes in same way as any other dist. rotor pointing at #1, points just breaking. there is no way to accurately line up the dist position with any marks on distributor body. cap only fits on one way (actually 2 ways 180 degrees apart but not relevant here) with rotor pointing at #1, put cap on, wire socket on cap wire goes to cyl #1. the rest of the wires are installed to corresponding cylinders following firing order on top right of tin. don't try to make cap what you think is tdc, set the enginge at tdc on 1, set points, install cap, install wires in firing order. its real simple.

[Gatornapper]

Dear friend Mort -

I totally understand what you are saying - and have ever since I started working on this engine in July. I know well the cylinders and the firing order - they are both stamped on the engine tins. I have been a mechanic for 50 years. I do appreciate your attempts to help.

I think you are not understanding what I am trying to communicate. If that is so, the problem may be that I am not making clear what the situation is. I have already done exactly what you described in your post.

When I put the engine on TDC for #1, the rotor is in the 1 o'clock position. I cannot change that - it is determined by the slot on the distributor driveshaft and the offset part of the bottom of the dizzy. That is where the plug fires doing a static setting of the timing. With the points gap set at .016".

Why is the rotor in the wrong position? If I remember correctly, when the engine was running perfectly, the #1 plug wire was on the tower in the 11 o'clock position, as in the pic on Post 25 (NOT my dizzy). However, I did not record its position as the engine was running well and it was a non-issue. I replace all the ignition parts except the coil in July.
I have never touched the dizzy driveshaft, but it appears to be in the wrong position.

The tower the rotor should point to is the one at the 11 o'clock position when #1 fires - agreed? (my "o'clock" references are based on 12 o'clock being the part of the distributor being closest to the firewall). I

How can the position of the rotor when cylinder #1 is at TDC change?

Unless a gear on the dizzy driveshaft has slipped or moved? And I understand that that cannot happen.

I hope I am making sense - I am sure trying the best I can.

GN

this last pic of rotor has it pointed at #2. that is not where it should be to static time. your tins are stamped with each cylinder # and the firing order is stamped up on right side tin by fan housing. use the factory stampings for position, don't reinvent the wheel. put engine at tdc on cyl #1. timing mark on fan and flywheel should be in the apertures. clock distributor so that rotor is pointing at cyl #1. ( 1 position back from in the photo) set your points at this point and you should be close. you only need to time one cylinder correctly then the engineering magic occurs on the other three. forget about the marks on the distributor body, the rotor contact is the index.

[injunmort]

if I am understanding you correctly, you say rotor is 11 o'clock position when timed at tdc on number 1 cylinder. that is incorrect, rotor should be at 7 o'clock position on tdc cylinder 1( pointing at spark plug in clylinder 1.) now if you are tdc on clinder 1 and that pic shows rotor loacation, you can time it there by making that wire your #1 wire. following firing order after. I just use the factory positions to keep it simple. you can change the position of the rotor by pulling distributor AND distributor drive from the motor. the drive is slotted and the distributor only fits it in the proper orientation. I pull both, pull cap, turn rotor to face cylinder 1 and then put both pieces in together. that gets the correct orientation. even if they separate during re install, it is close enough to be adjusted by turning dist body, then set the points, cap and reinstall wires.

[Gatornapper]

PS: I have verified with my timing light that #1 IS FIRING at TDC when the engine is cranking.

[Gatornapper]

Mort -

Thank you.

"if I am understanding you correctly, you say rotor is 11 o'clock position when timed at tdc on number 1 cylinder"

No. Currently the rotor is at the 1 o'clock position when #1 fires. I thought it used to be at 11 o'clock when the engine was running well.....but I don't know for sure as I never recorded its position. It may well have been in the 7 o'clock position as I never really noticed where it was - as the engine ran great (once I got the Weber's dialed in).

If it should be at the 7 o'clock position (12 o'clock being closest to firewall), how did it get 180 deg. out of position? That would be 1 revolution of the engine -

Another question that will help me greatly:

Please look at Garland's pic in Post #2. Is that a photo of the dizzy driveshaft at TDC for cylinder #1? The "0" degrees noted in that pic is what I am referencing at 12 o'clock.

Thank you for your patience........

GN

if I am understanding you correctly, you say rotor is 11 o'clock position when timed at tdc on number 1 cylinder. that is incorrect, rotor should be at 7 o'clock position on tdc cylinder 1( pointing at spark plug in clylinder 1.) now if you are tdc on clinder 1 and that pic shows rotor loacation, you can time it there by making that wire your #1 wire. following firing order after. I just use the factory positions to keep it simple.