Distributor Shaft Alignment, Small sector to Left/driver side? or Right/pass. side? Options

[injunmort]

cant tell what position that is without looking at timing marks on engine. that pic shows dist DRIVE in engine. I take that out when static timing the engine so I know it goes back in with the correct orientation.

[Gatornapper]

In the Haynes manual on p. 65, Figure 3.6, there is a similar photo to Garland's pic on Post 2 - BUT, in the Haynes photo I cannot tell whether the "small segment" of the dizzy driveshaft is to the right of center or to the left of center. It clearly says this is the position at TDC.

In Garland's photo, clearly the "small segment" of the dizzy driveshaft is to the right of center. This is how it was when I inserted the dizzy last week.

Now follow me on this please: If Garland's pic is where the dizzy driveshaft is at TDC of #1 on compression stroke, then on the exhaust stroke TDC the dizzy driveshaft would be 1/2 revolution (1 full engine revolution) from the TDC compression stroke - putting the "small segment" of the shaft on the left side of the shaft center.

Does that make sense?

[injunmort]

I think you are missing somethings. that drive and its orientation is determined when installed. you can take that out and rotate it, put it back in and all you have done is change the clocking of dist. the engine needs to be at tdc, compression on #1. verified by timing marks on fan/flywheel. then you can pull the drive out, orientate it to where the distributor shaft teeth mesh with the drive shaft sockets. turn the shafts so the rotor points at cylinder #1 and drop back in. there is no ,fixed position on the drive sprocket it slide in with slots oriented wherever you put them. depending that it was right before or you didn't mess with it is not enough, you need to completely static time the engine and this is part of the process.

[injunmort]

many years ago I was restoring an early 1930's Norton. the timing chest was not marked. meaning no timiing marks on cam wheels or crank. fortunately, the stroke positions were available at the time. timing the cams, crank and ignition had to be done on the bench with a degree wheel, straight edge, caliper, and ruler. then the ignition was timed on the mag. fortunately for us, porshe marked those positions to alleviate that. use the timing marks to set ignition timing, makes it a lot simpler.

[Gatornapper]

Again, bro - I totally get that. The dizzy driveshaft can be installed in a number of positions.

But is not the position of the dizzy driveshaft as originally installed and correct for TDC on #1 in the photo in Post #2?

If so, does that not position the rotor as it is shown in the pic on Post #25?

I have not touched mine ever. And a month and a half ago, the car was running perfectly. And had been running fairly well from when I first started it after 14 years in July. Of course before starting it I completely rebuilt both the fuel and ignition systems. And a couple tablespoons of Marvel Mystery oil sat in the cylinders for a month before I even cranked engine. It started immediately after 14 years - AND - NO SMOKE!

But I never removed the dizzy until after the engine totally quit running about Nov. 11th. I had no reason to touch it.

I do not want to touch the distributor driveshaft.

Now, I guess I could rotate the dizzy (NOT the driveshaft) 90 deg. counter-clockwise and then have #1 firing on the dizzy cam lobe to the left of the one it fires on now. But it seems to me that would change nothing but the position of the #1 cap tower in relation to the engine orientation.

Again, right now #1 is firing on TDC exactly - both shown on static light and timing light.

I'll take a pic tomorrow of my dizzy cap orientation for #1 plug wire.

Thanks.......

GN

I think you are missing somethings. that drive and its orientation is determined when installed. you can take that out and rotate it, put it back in and all you have done is change the clocking of dist. the engine needs to be at tdc, compression on #1. verified by timing marks on fan/flywheel. then you can pull the drive out, orientate it to where the distributor shaft teeth mesh with the drive shaft sockets. turn the shafts so the rotor points at cylinder #1 and drop back in. there is no ,fixed position on the drive sprocket it slide in with slots oriented wherever you put them. depending that it was right before or you didn't mess with it is not enough, you need to completely static time the engine and this is part of the process.

[injunmort]

have no idea with out seeing orientation of rotor. I never looked. but if you have engine at tdc on 1, wherever the rotor is pointing on the cap becomes the post for the wire to #1 the next one is plug wire for #4 the next one is for # 2 and the last (which will be next to #1) is #3. the cap positions matter in relation to rotor position/firing order. I get you don't want to remove shaft, so looking at pics of other distributor positions is irrelevant, what matters is where yours is clocked and timing it from there.

[Gatornapper]

Mort -

See my post 6 and the pic in it. In this pic the rotor is located exactly where TDC for #1 is.

BTW - I collect & work on old Triumph's - have 3 - would love to have an old Norton - friend in NC has a '73 Commando restored to Concours/better than new condition.....sadly it sits.....whereas all my bikes get ridden.......and start on 1 kick, hot or cold - 90% of the time.......I keep them tuned precisely........

I have timing wheels for all my old Trumpies.....but thankfully don't need them. Marking the flywheels on old bikes is relatively easy because of accessibility......

GN

have no idea with out seeing orientation of rotor. I never looked. but if you have engine at tdc on 1, wherever the rotor is pointing on the cap becomes the post for the wire to #1 the next one is plug wire for #4 the next one is for # 2 and the last (which will be next to #1) is #3. the cap positions matter in relation to rotor position/firing order. I get you don't want to remove shaft, so looking at pics of other distributor positions is irrelevant, what matters is where yours is clocked and timing it from there.

[Gatornapper]

I understand totally that the timing is set wherever the dizzy is on TDC and the engine doesn't really care.

BUT, there must be some reason that the driveshaft location is clearly specified both in the Haynes manual on p. 65, Figure 3.6, and in the photo in Post #2, with a clear specification that the shaft is to be 12 deg. CCW from the driveshaft alignment.

So my next (anal) question is: WHY is the 12 degrees so noted and specified????

There must be a reason. It will work just as well one gear tooth in either direction, I would think. How many teeth on the dizzy driveshaft at the bottom? The degrees per tooth are 360/# of teeth on driveshaft gear.

TIA,

GN

[porschetub]

I understand totally that the timing is set wherever the dizzy is on TDC and the engine doesn't really care.

BUT, there must be some reason that the driveshaft location is clearly specified both in the Haynes manual on p. 65, Figure 3.6, and in the photo in Post #2, with a clear specification that the shaft is to be 12 deg. CCW from the driveshaft alignment.

So my next (anal) question is: WHY is the 12 degrees so noted and specified????

There must be a reason. It will work just as well one gear tooth in either direction, I would think. How many teeth on the dizzy driveshaft at the bottom? The degrees per tooth are 360/# of teeth on driveshaft gear.

TIA,

GN

The 12 degree's is a set point to locate the dizzy so the vacuum canister can clear parts on top of the engine like the cold start valve and the cooling flap rod,that position allowing for timing @ #1 TDC puts the dizzy adjacent to the breather tower.
If you have a 009 for example it matters little as long as # 1 plug lead lines up with the distributor body notch @ TDC as you can turn it around and just reset your leads 1-4-3-2.
One tooth out puts the dizzy out by 30 degrees as there are 12 teeth ok.
The Haynes manual is a poor reference in many area's and this is one of them.

[sixnotfour]

I understand totally that the timing is set wherever the dizzy is on TDC and the engine doesn't really care.

BUT, there must be some reason that the driveshaft location is clearly specified both in the Haynes manual on p. 65, Figure 3.6, and in the photo in Post #2, with a clear specification that the shaft is to be 12 deg. CCW from the driveshaft alignment.

So my next (anal) question is: WHY is the 12 degrees so noted and specified????

There must be a reason. It will work just as well one gear tooth in either direction, I would think. How many teeth on the dizzy driveshaft at the bottom? The degrees per tooth are 360/# of teeth on driveshaft gear.

TIA,

GN

The 12 degree's is a set point to locate the dizzy so the vacuum canister can clear parts on top of the engine like the cold start valve and the cooling flap rod,that position allowing for timing @ #1 TDC puts the dizzy adjacent to the breather tower.
If you have a 009 for example it matters little as long as # 1 plug lead lines up with the distributor body notch @ TDC as you can turn it around and just reset your leads 1-4-3-2.
One tooth out puts the dizzy out by 30 degrees as there are 12 teeth ok.
The Haynes manual is a poor reference in many area's and this is one of them.

Thank You (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif)

[Gatornapper]

THANK YOU AS WELL! Totally makes sense!

And will be important to me as once I get the engine running well again, I'll be replacing my 178 009 centrifugal-only dizzy with a vacuum 181 009 - and the orientation will be critical.......

And thank you for all the other details like the 12 teeth/30 deg. each bit too.....I like knowing the details.......many thanks......

GN

I understand totally that the timing is set wherever the dizzy is on TDC and the engine doesn't really care.

BUT, there must be some reason that the driveshaft location is clearly specified both in the Haynes manual on p. 65, Figure 3.6, and in the photo in Post #2, with a clear specification that the shaft is to be 12 deg. CCW from the driveshaft alignment.

So my next (anal) question is: WHY is the 12 degrees so noted and specified????

There must be a reason. It will work just as well one gear tooth in either direction, I would think. How many teeth on the dizzy driveshaft at the bottom? The degrees per tooth are 360/# of teeth on driveshaft gear.

TIA,

GN

The 12 degree's is a set point to locate the dizzy so the vacuum canister can clear parts on top of the engine like the cold start valve and the cooling flap rod,that position allowing for timing @ #1 TDC puts the dizzy adjacent to the breather tower.
If you have a 009 for example it matters little as long as # 1 plug lead lines up with the distributor body notch @ TDC as you can turn it around and just reset your leads 1-4-3-2.
One tooth out puts the dizzy out by 30 degrees as there are 12 teeth ok.
The Haynes manual is a poor reference in many area's and this is one of them.

[Gatornapper]

Mort -

In my rotor pic, that is exactly where #1 fires at TDC (confirmed on both flywheel and impeller).

What blows my mind is that if I remember correctly, from when I first started the engine, the 'chimney' you describe WAS WHERE #1 PLUG WIRE USED TO BE. But I am not sure as I never got into dizzy as engine was running so well.

But when engine quit running (for no reason I can find), I pulled the dizzy, put in new points, gapped them at .016", put engine where #1 was at TDC compression stroke - and find that #1 fires with the rotor in the position in my pic.

So - if my memory is correct on the initial chimney for #1 being as you described - how did rotor position get changed from position you describe to the position in my pic? The dizzy shaft groove will - as we all know - only allow the dizzy to be installed in one position. I still have never touched the dizzy driveshaft.

I know this defies logic.

GN

in your picture, you are not timed on #1. that is #4. #1 from the back of the car is trans left side. 1 next to it is 2(by chimney left side, 3 trans right side , 4 is chimney , right side. by that pic you are 180 out. can be done with better grasp of system. go by book. put #1 on tdc compression (both rockers on #1 loose) check your fan mark, should be in aperture. clock your dist so that the rotor is pointed at the #1 spark plug. you may need to take out drive pinion and turn it 180 degrees. now set points by rotating dist. until points just break. that is it. next is setting with light while running.

[Gatornapper]

The answer is NO. The rotor in the 009 points to different "clock" position than the rotor in a stock dist. [i] It's still the #1 cylinder, though, so all that matters is that you have the wires matched up to the rotor's position underneath.
Hope that helps.

Thank you Tom for noting this! I put in the 0 231 181 009 dizzy (for 1.8 engine with both vacuum & centrifugal advance) with a Pertronix 1847V Ignitor and the engine ran perfectly! Yes, TDC is now at the 11 o'clock position now (as is mark on rim of dizzy).

HOWEVER, the ignitor module died after 10 minutes of driving. Yes, it was wired correctly (verified by Pertronix) and no it did not burn up. Using MDS Blaster II coil w/.8 ohm resistor ahead of + terminal on coil as required. No - voltage does not exceed 14v as alternator is only producing 12.8 +/-. I will replace it this week.

Returning the ignitor to Pertronix to see if they will cover it on warranty, but main question is: what fried the module? There is continuity to ground on the black wire all the time, circuit does not open on dizzy rotation. Pertronix has no idea, and neither do I.

But that is my first and main question. Right now I'm afraid if I put in a new ignitor, it will also go bad in 10 minutes - or so.

Pertronix was clueless - so I'll be real surprised if anyone here has any idea. They said their ignitors almost never fail.

GN