Slightly OT: what is the last best analog sports car with hydraulic power steering Options

[Tdskip]

Just as a thought exercise – if you had to pick a new – modern sports car that had proper hydraulic, rather than electric, power steering what would it be?

Just walked past about a 7 year old Audi R8, hence the question.

I’m sure the last generation Cayman would have be on the short list...

[injunmort]

98-02 bmw z3 with 2.8 or 3l six. imho

[Mark Henry]

With the title I'd be thinking more of a late 70's car at most.

[DickSteinkamp]

..that had proper hydraulic, rather than electric, power steering

I don't get it.

What are the advantages of hydraulic over electric? I can only see advantages for electric (lighter, infinitely adjustable from the cockpit, no leaks or fluid to check, no burst hoses). There is a big after market biz converting hydraulic to electric. None going the other way.

[Mark Henry]

..that had proper hydraulic, rather than electric, power steering

I don't get it.

What are the advantages of hydraulic over electric? I can only see advantages for electric (lighter, infinitely adjustable from the cockpit, no leaks or fluid to check, no burst hoses). There is a big after market biz converting hydraulic to electric. None going the other way.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) I'm going to be installing an electric rack in a customers 997 shortly.

[Chi-town]

996 non turbo/986 MY1999.

No nannies, cable throttle, well tuned ABS

[Tdskip]

..that had proper hydraulic, rather than electric, power steering

I don't get it.

What are the advantages of hydraulic over electric? I can only see advantages for electric (lighter, infinitely adjustable from the cockpit, no leaks or fluid to check, no burst hoses). There is a big after market biz converting hydraulic to electric. None going the other way.

Feel - I prefer cars without any assistance but kind of hard to find a modern car with power steering. Personally I find hydraulic systems have better feel/ communication.

[infraredcalvin]

Define analog. Once you get into abs and stability control I think the term “analog” goes out the window....

[Superhawk996]

..that had proper hydraulic, rather than electric, power steering

I don't get it.

What are the advantages of hydraulic over electric? I can only see advantages for electric (lighter, infinitely adjustable from the cockpit, no leaks or fluid to check, no burst hoses). There is a big after market biz converting hydraulic to electric. None going the other way.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[DickSteinkamp]

..that had proper hydraulic, rather than electric, power steering

I don't get it.

What are the advantages of hydraulic over electric? I can only see advantages for electric (lighter, infinitely adjustable from the cockpit, no leaks or fluid to check, no burst hoses). There is a big after market biz converting hydraulic to electric. None going the other way.

Feel - I prefer cars without any assistance but kind of hard to find a modern car with power steering. Personally I find hydraulic systems have better feel/ communication.

Most OE and aftermarket EPS systems can be tuned to individual preferences from the driver's seat. Some can do it automatically based on road speed.

I also dislike "numb" steering systems. I have found lots of hydraulic systems (especially in older cars) to be in that category. I've yet to find an EPS one that I didn't like...or couldn't tune to like.

Also I think it is easy to find a modern car with power steering. Even the small and inexpensive cars seem to have it.

[Superhawk996]

..that had proper hydraulic, rather than electric, power steering

I don't get it.

What are the advantages of hydraulic over electric? I can only see advantages for electric (lighter, infinitely adjustable from the cockpit, no leaks or fluid to check, no burst hoses). There is a big after market biz converting hydraulic to electric. None going the other way.

Feel - I prefer cars without any assistance but kind of hard to find a modern car with power steering. Personally I find hydraulic systems have better feel/ communication.

What in the world are you comparing to as the baseline?

A manual rack is the benchmark for feel, feedback, communication what ever terms you want to call it by.

Hydraulic and Electronic Power Assist Steering (EPAS) are all over the map from OEM to OEM as well as within trim series so I don't know that I'd buy into a generalization hydrualic steering has better feel but I do concede that it is all about personal preference. In either Hydraulic or EPAS, it is all about how the system was tuned. Torsion bar (steering torsion bar - called a T-bar) sizing in either case has a lot to do with feel. Hydraulic has added complexities tolerances associated to the assist valve griding, hydraulic hose compliances, and even hose routing. I don't miss the days of tuning hydraulic steering systems at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)


Feel is just as influenced by steering geometry particularly caster but also scrub radius, tire mu, tire tread patterns and sidewall stiffness just to name a few.

[Tdskip]

There’s a difference between “feel “and “effort “. No doubt that electric systems are almost instantly adjustable for effort, but that doesn’t mean they were communicating like the older systems.

To each their own, but regardless of effort I find most electric systems numb.

[Superhawk996]

..that had proper hydraulic, rather than electric, power steering

I don't get it.

What are the advantages of hydraulic over electric? I can only see advantages for electric (lighter, infinitely adjustable from the cockpit, no leaks or fluid to check, no burst hoses). There is a big after market biz converting hydraulic to electric. None going the other way.

Feel - I prefer cars without any assistance but kind of hard to find a modern car with power steering. Personally I find hydraulic systems have better feel/ communication.

What in the world are you comparing to as the baseline for a "good" hydraulic steering sytem?

A manual rack is the benchmark for feel, feedback, communication what ever terms you want to call it by. Most modern cars have simply gotten too heavy for a unassisted steering system to be feasible.

Hydraulic and Electronic Power Assist Steering (EPAS) are all over the map from OEM to OEM as well as within trim series so I don't know that I'd buy into a generalization hydrualic steering has better feel but I do concede that it is all about personal preference. In either Hydraulic or EPAS, it is all about how the system was tuned. Torsion bar (steering torsion bar - called a T-bar) sizing in either case has a lot to do with feel. Hydraulic has added complexities & tolerances associated to the assist valve griding, hydraulic hose compliances, and even hose routing. I don't miss the days of tuning hydraulic steering systems at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)


Feel is just as influenced by steering geometry particularly caster but also scrub radius, tire mu, tire tread patterns and sidewall stiffness just to name a few.

Steering feel is really a systems engineering thing. No one thing makes or breaks a sytem including whether it is hydraulic or EPAS.

I'll still take EPAS for a host of other reasons not the least of which is lack of steering moan (NVH issues) and pump wear issues over time. Let's not even discuss leaks and/or the number of engine fires that have occurred over the years from ruptured hoses that atomized power steering fluid and had it get on hot manifolds. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yikes.gif) Yup. Don't miss hydraulic one bit.

[DickSteinkamp]

The ONLY thing that both hydraulic and EPS can do is reduce effort. That has a lot to do with "feel", of course. Both systems can overly reduce effort which isn't much fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) . All the other "feel" variables are not associated with the method of reducing effort.

[Maltese Falcon]

CGT

[Tdskip]

CGT

For a second I actually thought you meant this



First time I drove my MGB-GT on the 405 where the pavement is grooved I actually thought something was wrong with the car, I just never felt the grooves in the road that so clearly before.

@siperhawk996 - just about every BMW 3 series and 911 that I’ve driven after the cut over to electric steering was disappointing.

[Superhawk996]

Just about every BMW 3 series and 911 that I’ve driven after the cut over to electric steering was disappointing.

I'll make an observation on your observation (which I don't disagree with).

The days of the Ultimate Driving Machine are over.

In both cases, BMW & 911, the demographic has changed. More so with the BMW's. Most drivers of these cars now value light parking efforts over communication or feedback. Most drivers of these cars are now driving these brands for lifestyle purposes, not for driving pleasure and driving dynamics. OEM's are chasing customer satisfaction of their curent customers . . . not their legacy customers that are quickly aging out. Of the OEM's. I still think Porsche has some of the best steering feel out there regardless of which type (old hydraulic vs. modern EPAS).

The other thing that has happend in the last 10 years or so is the packing on of pounds and ever increasing size of wheels. 19" and 20" wheels are now very common. Unsprung weight and rotational inertia also have a direct impact on steering feel.

[Superhawk996]

First time I drove my MGB-GT on the 405 where the pavement is grooved I actually thought something was wrong with the car, I just never felt the grooves in the road that so clearly before.

You didn't mention if there was a change in tires involved in this.

Tire tread patterns and tire construction have a huge effect on rain groove wander. I regularly drive cars that are EXACTLY the same in all regards from a vehicle dynamics component stand point (measured springs, bars, bushings, etc.) and just changing tires can vary rain groove wander from unnoticeable to unacceptable on the same stretches of pavement at the exact same speeds.

[Ansbacher]

How about a 924S or an early 944?

[Tdskip]

Addresses the feel issue

Jason on Electric Power Steering