Question on Valuations, Value difference: high end 914/6 conversion vs same on original 914/6 chassis? Options

[Rufus]

Hi Guys - I'm at a major crossroads with my project and need to brainstorm with others in the 914 community.

As a baseline, this very nice conversion sold recently for $72.5k. Here's a link:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=343405

If *everything* else was the same, except the chassis was an original 1970 914/6 chassis (not originally a 914/4), and also that the original drivetrain is long gone, how would the market value differ? Please consider in both cases what fair market value is, and ignore the possibility this recent sale was a smokin' deal.

Looking forward to your opinions ...

Thanks,
Bob

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

wildly different. An original 914-6 vs the EXACT same car but a conversion, is worth in my opinion at least 60 percent more.


However, some of the conversion cars are highly modified way beyond what the original six was, and people pay a premium for this type of car. Hence they cannot be compared.

Hi Guys - I'm at a major crossroads with my project and need to brainstorm with others in the 914 community.

As a baseline, this very nice conversion sold recently for $72.5k. Here's a link:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=343405

If *everything* else was the same, except the chassis was an original 1970 914/6 chassis (not originally a 914/4 and also that the original drivetrain is long gone), how would the market value differ? Please consider in both cases what fair market value is, and ignore the possibility this recent sale was a smokin' deal.

Looking forward to your opinions ...

Thanks,
Bob

[eric9144]

@Rufus there are a LOT of factors at play in your question and it's kind of going to depend on what you want in the end.

There was a real 6 in Signal Orange that was in the same price bracket and was in amazing condition with steel flares and a 2.4 as well as the original engine.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=341050&hl=

I did not want a real 6, too stressful for me as I'd feel I had an obligation to keep it at a certain level which would ultimately prevent me from driving the $Hit out of it...and the enjoyment I get out of the 914 is in that experience.

The $72,5k car was at the far end of the conversion spectrum, not something you typically see either, having a 993 3.8 RS spec engine etc. I bought that car and it's way more than I'd have thought I'd have spent on a conversion car prior to having bought it, I was hoping for something decent in the $40-55k range. But prices being what they are, the sum of the parts and provenance of the build, it was still a a good buy (or at least I tell myself it was (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif))

A "real" 6 GT, sky's the limit, there's very few, no real baseline and recently have gone for huge money at auction.

It was different when you could get decent 911 engines for $5-8k in running condition and components like wheels etc were also much more affordable. As the classic Porsche market took off all that stuff went sky high. Pricing on a conversion car now is going to come down to the components used, the way the stuff was put on and assembled and what still needs to be done or wasn't done at all.

[eric9144]

Also, to your question

If *everything* else was the same, except the chassis was an original 1970 914/6 chassis (not originally a 914/4 and also that the original drivetrain is long gone), how would the market value differ?

I'd think the average 914 fan would see that as a sad thing that an original six was turned into some sort of beast like that and would actually detract from it's provenance as a factory 6 cylinder car.

[Mueller]

That car if a real /6 chassis would still be at PMS if they had asked $110K for it.

Now if it was a proper GT conversion maybe.

My opinion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[eric9144]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Porsche-914-G...dAAAOSwCepeBu0Q
Crazy money

[Rufus]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

“I'd think the average 914 fan would see that as a sad thing that an original six was turned into some sort of beast like that and would actually detract from it's provenance as a factory 6 cylinder car.”

I 100% agree, and could never bring myself to modify an original six. I bought mine 10+ years ago for a project I’m just now getting seriously underway. It apparently lead a pretty hard life. The drivetrain was long gone when I acquired it. It had flares ... 2 steel, 2 glass, and was generally in pretty tired condition. It was fitted with a chassis mounted roll bar at some point. (Oddly the previous owner of record was a drag racer and also involved in building land speed record cars in the 1990’s. He even appeared on Regis and Kathie Lee ... and after firing up the LSR in downtown NYC, was asked by the NYPD to leave and not come back.) Sorry, I’m kinda drifting off topic ...

The car’s at Rothsport. What I’m considering is similar to the “Big Laguna”. I already have a 3.6l, a 915 w/lsd, a WEVO, and some suspension upgrades from a track focused donor car I picked up. Also envisioned are chassis stiffening, and brake upgrades, but no roll cage. It will be 100% a street driver.

When complete, other than inside the engine compartment, the cosmetic deviations from original will be: the 4 steel flairs / rockers, missing side markers, WEVO shifter, a combo gage in the dash and a double wrapped 380mm “RS” steering wheel. It will retain it’s original 914/6 oil tank, and oil coolers mounted under the rear trunk floor (ie stock chrome f/r bumpers and no front mounted oil cooler.)

So mine won’t be as track focused as the “Big Laguna”, but probably appear a little closer to an original 914/6, including the black targa top and “basket handle” and 15” Fuchs.

[eric9144]

Sounds like you already have most of the $$ parts, and if it's at Rothsport its in very good hands. Is your original topic question related to it being a money pit in the end or potential resale if you "had to sell"?

Sometimes you have to go with your passion for the car and say F the money if it truly makes you happy. That being said, its almost always cheaper to buy someone else's big dollar build. After coming through the receipts on my car, I know I saved as much as I spent or more, and didn't have to invest 2-3 years of cash, sweat and tears into getting the project to completion.

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

I second that emotion!

Also, to your question

If *everything* else was the same, except the chassis was an original 1970 914/6 chassis (not originally a 914/4 and also that the original drivetrain is long gone), how would the market value differ?

I'd think the average 914 fan would see that as a sad thing that an original six was turned into some sort of beast like that and would actually detract from it's provenance as a factory 6 cylinder car.

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

the six conversions are pretty great cars AND you can drive them! Best thing is that the bodies and hardware are so superior (like the shift linkage, window regulator mechanisms, and body reinforcements)

[horizontally-opposed]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

“I'd think the average 914 fan would see that as a sad thing that an original six was turned into some sort of beast like that and would actually detract from it's provenance as a factory 6 cylinder car.”

I 100% agree, and could never bring myself to modify an original six. I bought mine 10+ years ago for a project I’m just now getting seriously underway. It apparently lead a pretty hard life. The drivetrain was long gone when I acquired it. It had flares ... 2 steel, 2 glass, and was generally in pretty tired condition. It was fitted with a chassis mounted roll bar at some point. (Oddly the previous owner of record was a drag racer and also involved in building land speed record cars in the 1990’s. He even appeared on Regis and Kathie Lee ... and after firing up the LSR in downtown NY, was asked by the NYPD to leave and not come back.) Sorry, I’m kinda drifting off topic ...

The car’s at Rothsport. What I’m considering is similar to the “Big Laguna”. I already have a 3.6l, a 915 w/lsd, a WEVO, and some suspension upgrades from a track focused donor car I picked up. Also envisioned are chassis stiffening, and brake upgrades, but no roll cage. It will be 100% a street driver.

When complete, other than inside the engine compartment, the cosmetic deviations from original will be: the 4 steel flairs / rockers, missing side markers, WEVO shifter, a combo gage in the dash and a double wrapped 380mm “RS” steering wheel. It will retain it’s original 914/6 oil tank, and oil coolers mounted under the rear trunk floor (ie stock chrome f/r bumpers and no front mounted oil cooler.)

So mine won’t be as track focused as the “Big Laguna”, but probably appear a little closer to an original 914/6, including the black targa top and “basket handle” and 15” Fuchs.

^ Porsches are funny, in a good way, when it comes to hot rods. Of course the absolute top $ usually goes to super original time capsules, rare models, and historic race cars. After that, things get "grayer"—and I am glad about that. Unlike Ferrari or Corvette collectors, Porsche collectors seem to be cool with hot rods...and if you're starting with a real 914-6 or early 911 or 356 that's had a rough life, there's no restoring originality—so you are faced with the crossroads you're at: Return to the way it came or resto/mod it into something you'll like with some sensitivity to how the factory might have done it. Older Porsches done the latter way, and done well, tend to have strong appeal to a lot of buyers out there. Your recipe sounds great, and I doubt it will have a negative impact on the car's value—particularly if everything save the engine and the shifter are "period correct" and done in the way the factory might have. Color, trim, finishes, etc.—the devil is in the details. The other items you list are all visual/mechanical upgrades that are in keeping with what Porsche would have done and would increase the car's value for me.

If you don't care about resale, do whatcha like—there are a lot of very cool 914 hot rods out there that aren't period/factory correct, but their owners have added something cool to the landscape without care or concern for what value someone else might derive. Love those cars, too, but can see where people have been increasingly building them on 914-4 platforms. I think the days of taking a mostly original, mostly stock 914-6 (and 914-4!) and modding it or cutting non-rusty sheetmetal may have finally come to an end.

[IronHillRestorations]

I'm doing a resto-mod on a real 6. It's getting a custom 2.7 and steel flairs. I quit asking the owner "are you sure you want to do this" after he asked me how much he might be flushing. My guess was maybe $20-30k. He doesn't care, he's owned the car for 30+ years and he's always wanted a widebody 914. The tub was pretty rotten when I got it, and needed lots of structural work.

[mepstein]

That car if a real /6 chassis would still be at PMS if they had asked $110K for it.

Now if it was a proper GT conversion maybe.

My opinion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think PMS would be asking $220K for it or at least quote that to make another.

I'm building all my cars for me so I don't even think about final valuations. I don't care about numbers matching or date codes either. Ironically, I restored a motorcycle and made sure it was all authentic and matching. It was an early build, almost a prototype for the model so I wanted to keep it stock. Also, I know so little about motorcycles that I didn't feel I had the knowledge to modify one correctly.

[larryM]

If you don't care about resale, do whatcha like—there are a lot of very cool 914 hot rods out there that aren't period/factory correct, but their owners have added something cool to the landscape without care or concern for what value someone else might derive.

X2

[Rufus]

Once again, thanks for the continued flow of good info and comments fellas.

“Is your original topic question related to it being a money pit in the end or potential resale if you "had to sell"?“

Yes to both. But more directly involved is the question of whether to continue my original plan of using the 914/6 for the project, or the 1974 /4 donor with rust free tub instead.

*Except for the difference between the starting points ... either a /6 or a /4, the end result will be same - an M-471 near-clone with 3.6l, 915, etc., etc.. My interest is in predicting how much each path would put me underwater after considering resale. I’ll weigh the difference against my strong preference to have a “real” 6 in making the final decision.*

This all results from the only recent discovery at Rothsport that the /6 tub would require <a lot> of rust repair. (I know, shame on me for not personally verifying its condition before purchasing it from 1000 miles away in 2004. But shame also on the guy I bought it from ... a known party on the early911Sregistry who had also just previously sold me my fully restored ‘67 S. He said the /6 was “rust free”. Anyway, too much time has passed, and life’s too short, so I’ve moved on.) I’ll balance my strong personal preference for using the 914/6 tub and its impact on final value against the extra cost of resurrecting the rusty tub once I get an answer on what the repair cost would be.

[GeorgeRud]

If you do all the work correctly on either car, you will be upside down when done. However, you’ll feel better actually driving the conversion without being as concerned over the value. I was fortunate enough to have @ factory -6 and then built up a conversion -6, and the conversion was much easier to drive and not worry about it. However, choose whatever will give you joy!

[worn]

If you don't care about resale, do whatcha like—there are a lot of very cool 914 hot rods out there that aren't period/factory correct, but their owners have added something cool to the landscape without care or concern for what value someone else might derive.

X2

Waiting till the salt is gone to drive the 3.2. For groceries or on the highway or backroads. I don’t care, so long as I am steering it. Resale? Well,I’d have to stop driving it first.

[davehg]

I ask the value question frequently. I am doing a concours quality resto conversion with a Euro RS 2.7 twin plug, and I expect to be about $65-70k when complete. That’s high end of the spectrum for a conversion without a 3.6, but I don’t care as I am not intending to sell, certainly not after 4 years of restoration wait.

I have another 3.2 conversion that, thanks to an engine and trans rebuild, I know I will be upside down buy about $10k. When I think if I should do steel flares and paint, I need to remind myself that I’d be upside down another $20k. So the 3.2 will stay a drivers car, not a trailer queen.

Some days I wished I had just saved the $$ on the two cars and bought the Big Laguna. Then someone else would have taken the bath. But the experience has been awesome, and I’ve made some terrific friendships along the way, and I’ve gotten to know the cars intimately.

Do what you want and what you can afford and try not to think of these things as anything more than play toys. I’ve never made money on any car, but I sure enjoy them more than my bonds or stocks.

[Andyrew]

If you don't care about resale, do whatcha like—there are a lot of very cool 914 hot rods out there that aren't period/factory correct, but their owners have added something cool to the landscape without care or concern for what value someone else might derive.

X2

X3

Best part of the 914 culture!

You have the stock cars, the modified drivers, the high end shop builds, and the crazy home builds... And everything in between.

And for the most part they are all pretty well received by one another when chatting up in a parking lot!

[Tdskip]

I think regardless of the engine spec valuation of any conversion depends upon the details and how well the theme was executed. A narrow body 2.0 or 2.2 that has been done to a high level of attention to detail will find a buyer that’s willing to pay for it, they don’t have to be big motor, giant flare, cars to be appreciated.