V6/V8 Conversions & Starters, Something amiss Options

[dbledsoe]

I'm doing a V6 Buick conversion with adapters, etc. from Kennedy Engineered Products. I also bought an IMI High Torque starter from them. The only thing is, it won't clear the trunk floor so I can put it in. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif) The starter is IMI's #101, which is what Kennedy sent me knowing, I believe, that it was going into a 914. Anyone else run into this problem? Or, what starter did you end up using for your V6 or V8 conversion.

[dbledsoe]

Here's a picture of the starter on the engine. It is tall and the upper most part won't clear the trunk floor pan.

[jimkelly]

Any pics of floorpan sheet metal work?

Why v6 versus v8 - mostly because it fits better?

I guess a v6 is a bit less expensive?

Jim

[marks914]

You should have plenty of room, looks just like my setup.

Mark

[lapuwali]

Do a search here. I seem to remember a thread where someone discussed repositioning that starter relative to the mount, re-clocking it.

[dbledsoe]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jul 6 2005, 07:31 AM)

Do a search here.  I seem to remember a thread where someone discussed repositioning that starter relative to the mount, re-clocking it.

James,

Thank you for the advice. I now see that the front end of the starter that bolts to the tranny has multiple holes to reposition it. Something like that didn't even occur to me. Some days I'm a lot dumber than others, anyone else have that problem? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/slap.gif)

[dbledsoe]

QUOTE (jimkelly @ Jul 6 2005, 07:15 AM)

Any pics of floorpan sheet metal work? Why v6 versus v8 - mostly because it fits better? I guess a v6 is a bit less expensive? Jim

I chose a V6 because it is a much easier conversion, no electric water pumps to deal with, no banging on the bulkhead that separates the driving compartment from the engine bay, or whacking holes in the rear trunk, distributor is in front and easy to get to, etc. And a V6 can make plenty of power depending on how you build it. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/monkeydance.gif)

[ematulac]

Don,

Your car is looking great! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

Why don't you do an official build thread, so you have all of your progress in one thread? I'd love to be able to see your conversion from start to finish.

Regards,

Ed

[nine14cats]

Don,

I'm going through the same process with my V8 conversion right now.

Talking with Renegade they have found the following:

1. Not all trunk floor clearances are created equal (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

2. Re-clock the indexing of the starter (the issue is that there may be a clearance issue with your exhaust routing. Mike at RH says this is a problem depending upon what setup you use for exhaust).

3. RH uses a 4x4 block of wood and "dimples" the trunk pan for clearancing.

I'm going to dry fit the whole assembly and decide where to (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif)

Should be fun!

Bill P.

[dbledsoe]

QUOTE (nine14cats @ Jul 6 2005, 10:13 AM)

Don, I'm going through the same process with my V8 conversion right now. Talking with Renegade they have found the following: 1. Not all trunk floor clearances are created equal (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) 2. Re-clock the indexing of the starter (the issue is that there may be a clearance issue with your exhaust routing. Mike at RH says this is a problem depending upon what setup you use for exhaust). 3. RH uses a 4x4 block of wood and "dimples" the trunk pan for clearancing. I'm going to dry fit the whole assembly and decide where to (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) Should be fun! Bill P.

Bill,

When I get home from work tonight I'll try repositioning the starter to trans mating flange on the starter and then try again to get it in place. If that doesn't work I've got plenty of new 4x4, just hate to do that though.

Thank you for the tips from Renegade, just don't tell them you passed the info on to a guy doing a Buick V6 conversion. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) For some reason they don't like them.

Don

[nine14cats]

Hi Don,

Give the repositioning a shot and tell me how that goes. I'm leaning in that direction rather than putting a "dimple" in my pan.

I don't know why most folks are against a V6. My brother's first car was a Chevy Vega with the notorious blown head gasket on the 4 cylinder motor. We were able to get a Buick 231 V6 and cleaned it up (home grown porting work, my Grandfather had his own tractor/trailor truck repair shop).

With a 4 speed, the torque in the Vega was great!....I thought the car was a blast to drive....

I do know that Rod Simpson said that the torque pulses out of a V6 actually create more issues for the 901 in the "violence" of the crank throw. Rod told me that 225 ft/lbs of torque in a V6 was like 300 ft/lbs in a V8.

Maybe someone will chime in with the physics behind it.

Personally, I think the 6 looks pretty fuching bad ass in your engine bay! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

Bill P.

[neo914-6]

QUOTE (dbledsoe @ Jul 6 2005, 10:19 AM)

QUOTE (nine14cats @ Jul 6 2005, 10:13 AM) Don, I'm going through the same process with my V8 conversion right now.   Talking with Renegade they have found the following: 1.  Not all trunk floor clearances are created equal  :lol: 2.  Re-clock the indexing of the starter (the issue is that there may be a clearance issue with your exhaust routing.  Mike at RH says this is a problem depending upon what setup you use for exhaust). 3.  RH uses a 4x4 block of wood and "dimples" the trunk pan for clearancing. I'm going to dry fit the whole assembly and decide where to  :smash: Should be fun! Bill P. Bill, When I get home from work tonight I'll try repositioning the starter to trans mating flange on the starter and then try again to get it in place. If that doesn't work I've got plenty of new 4x4, just hate to do that though. Thank you for the tips from Renegade, just don't tell them you passed the info on to a guy doing a Buick V6 conversion. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) For some reason they don't like them. Don

From Scott when asked about firewall clearance:

QUOTE

These are hand build cars.  We have seen the fire wall differ at least 1.5 inches...and I am not kidding.  You will never be able to calculate that.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chairfall.gif)

Old V6's vibrated so that thinking still pervades RH...

[914GT]

On the trunk floor/starter clearance issue - how do you know it's not that your engine mount bar is setting your engine up too high? With V8s I've never seen an IMI starter interfere, and that's with the transaxle set back 1.5" further.

[dbledsoe]

QUOTE (Neo914 @ Jul 6 2005, 10:31 AM)

Old V6's vibrated so that thinking still pervades RH...

Felix,

Yep, that's their story. I emailed them early on in my project asking about a front motor mount for the Buick V6. They emailed back saying they don't do that conversion anymore. I emailed back saying, "Fine, but wouldn't you still have the jig to build one forward mount?" That's when they started in with the horror stories about how badly they vibrated, even to the extent they were shattering transmissions. What? Give me a break! And (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/pissoff.gif) I told them I'll take my chances just build me a front mount. They proceeded to tell me what a fool I am and I said (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) but I still want a motor mount, so I guess I'll look for other options. Guess they never heard of the even fire engines and balancing. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

[bondo]

QUOTE (nine14cats @ Jul 6 2005, 11:28 AM)

Maybe someone will chime in with the physics behind it.

Here's the way I think of it. A V8 fires 4 times per revolution, and a V6 only 3. So to get the same average torque, you have to have more energy with each firing with a 6. It's like trying to kick a soda can 100 feet without denting it. Eaiser to do in 4 kicks than 3. I'm guessing the flywheel negates this to some degree though.

[914GT]

If this theory were true, then a 4 cylinder would be worse yet. And that's what most stock 914s have. I think the bad reputation is due to the GM V6 and poor balancing, in contrast to inline or opposing 6 configurations which are smooth and well balanced.

[bondo]

QUOTE (914GT @ Jul 6 2005, 12:55 PM)

If this theory were true, then a 4 cylinder would be worse yet. And that's what most stock 914s have. I think the bad reputation is due to the GM V6 and poor balancing, in contrast to inline or opposing 6 configurations which are smooth and well balanced.

This is where the big 4 guys need to chime in.. at what torque level does a 4 break a 901?

[John2kx]

Here's a pic of two IMI starters purchased from the same place. They are clocked different but both worked in my v8 conversion.

I'd try to reclock.

John

[John2kx]

This is about the worse configuration you can have but still gives about 1/4" clearance with the v8. The transaxle is dropped 3/4" and moved back 1-1/2" for the 8. Maybe the 3/4" drop is helping here........but then again, I'm not familar with what is done as far as moving the transaxle in a v6.

John

[914GT]

Mine looks the same as yours John. About 1/4" clearance.