Cam Swap, Engine All Together Options

[dereknlee]

I have a decision to make and could use some advice. My 1.7 engine was completely re-built into a 2 liter in 2012 by a local shop. At the time the plan was to run 40 IDFs so a Webcam 86 (00-152) cam was installed. My 914 hasn't driven since 2008 and has been an on-again/off-again project ever since, so the rebuilt long block has never run.

Well the 914 project is back on again and in the intervening years I've decided to stick with D-jet. I talked with Webcam, they said the 86 grind isn't too different but that they recommend a 73. And they generously offered to exchange for the cost of shipping (assuming the cam condition is as new).

Swapping the cam is a bit intimidating as a project, but I have some engine rebuild experience and have done enough wrenching that I think I could muddle through.

My questions are as follows:

1) If in my shoes would anyone not change the cam? My consensus from searching this forum is that the 73 is the grind to go with for injection and 86 is for carbs. But the conversations are usually had while someone is doing a rebuild anyway and looking for the optimal cam.

2) Is there a minimally invasive way to get to the cam, or should I just follow engine rebuild instructions and pull everything apart? Haven't found anything in my searches on this or other forums to suggest there is any option here.

3) Should I really just have a shop do this? The warranty on the rebuild has long expired. But the possibility for mistakes that could take down the otherwise good rebuild abound (or so I fear). Are there any steps in this process that require experience or special tools that someone who is book taught on this process is likely to mess up?

Here's a picture, because walls of text are boring:

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.thesamba.com-14259-1587828462.1.jpg)

Thanks!

-Derek

[JOEPROPER]

Not sure about changing the cam but, if the engine was rebuilt by a reputable builder, then all the machine work and measuring has already been done. You would just have to take it apart and put it back together making sure you don't mix things up. I would just do it myself and change the cam to the optimum one.
You could ask the builder how much they would charge for disassemble and reassembly? May not be too much and you won't have to worry about it. This, like many projects take a long time (years) so, adding costs may not be a determining factor at this point. At least for me, the additional costs to keep it going aren't that big of a factor as originally thought and have lost track of how much (don't really want to know) I'm into it for. Good luck. I'm sure you'll get some good advice on the cam shaft choice.

I just put this in because I agree, text is boring.

[thelogo]

If you have the cam for carbs in there

Then run em ..... I cant help it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) webers

Djet is for suckers

[PanelBilly]

I'd ask for Rich to help. If you're not sure of what you're doing, hiring him to do it assures you that its done right. Besides he lives close to you

[TheCabinetmaker]

It's not a v8. Cam change is a total breakdown.

[porschetub]

Not a real big job as the motor is already reconditioned,is the shop that did the work still in business ? reason I ask is if you take it to someone else they may not offer a warranty on the job as the reconditioning wasn't done by them.
They may be prepared to offer some sort of warrant on labour to do the work however.
Its not a hard job and there is plenty of folk on here to guide you through it if you decide to DIY it,good luck.

[Cairo94507]

Hi Derek,

Wow, that's a great looking 914 you have there. I love the color.

As far as the cam, yes I would change it so it is compatible with the D-Jet. BTW, you will not regret going with the FI over carbs. I used to wrench and build engines, Chevy engines. But nowadays I just do not have those skills and want it done right so I don't have to do it over and over. Given the engine is fresh, I would ask the shop what they would charge to swap out the cam. Since it is nice and new with fresh parts, even if they wanted several hundred dollars to do that it would be money well spent in my mind.

Did I mention I loge the color. Please post more pictures. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[914werke]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) good lookin car.
I DONT agree with the carb love. You wont regret a well sorted D-Jet system
In the grand scheme of things the cam isnt an expensive part but it is a critical part.
The labor would be more of a bite, but if you are doing it yourself Id consider selling the Web 86 (shouldnt be too hard) and consider the Dual pattern custom grind cam that Aircooled.net offers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[jd74914]

do You have a complete and known working D Jet system for the 2L?

If not, and you’re considering paying someone to break the engine down and can swap (which will be a bunch of work and cost since the pushrods will have to be remade with the new geometry, etc), why not instead switch to a more modern EFI system? Even the simplistic system can be tuned to work with a ‘carb’ cam with little difference than an old FI grind. Cost may not be so different, and you won’t have to deal with old electronics. If you’re not too concerned about the stock look, Mario at the dub shop seems to have some pretty nice setups which aren’t too costly.

[dereknlee]

Lots of good ideas.

I think Webers look sexy as hell, so that coupled with my initial 'ick' reaction to the tangled web of FI hoses had me going down that road. But then I got a Vanagon and was forced to get a little more comfortable with FI - which has been rock solid in that vehicle. Also, maybe it is wishful thinking, but in the 12 years that this car has sat in my garage it seems like their value has gone up - so that's additional motivation to keep it stock (all be it with more displacement), maybe that will pay dividends in another 20 years. I do have the full 1.7 FI system, and it was working when the car was last parked.

You've convinced me that I need to change out the cam, and now leaning heavily towards paying to have it done. Trying to get through it on my own might save a few bucks on the cam, but its a false economy given the time and risk of causing other problems.

The engine was rebuilt by Northwest Connecting Rod. Looks like they have moved to Kent/Auburn since that time, if they are still in business? Any recommended engine businesses closer to Seattle? I'm not really concerned about warranty, already expired for the original rebuild.

I love the color too. It was more of a John Deer green when I bought it, but i really lucked out that I could turn up the volume on the brightness while still keeping the color original. I will post pictures of progress. This week I removed all the suspension. Today I finished disassembly of the front suspension and spent a few hours prepping it for paint. So not very photogenic work, but feels good to be making progress again.

Thanks again for all the advice,

Derek

[PlaysWithCars]

do You have a complete and known working D Jet system for the 2L?

If not, and you’re considering paying someone to break the engine down and can swap (which will be a bunch of work and cost since the pushrods will have to be remade with the new geometry, etc), why not instead switch to a more modern EFI system? Even the simplistic system can be tuned to work with a ‘carb’ cam with little difference than an old FI grind. Cost may not be so different, and you won’t have to deal with old electronics. If you’re not too concerned about the stock look, Mario at the dub shop seems to have some pretty nice setups which aren’t too costly.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Fuel injection (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) over carbs, but I wouldn't spend the money to swap cams. I'd do as Jim suggests and build an FI system for the motor you have. You've noted that your motor isn't a stock 1.7 anymore, so the 1.7 FI system isn't going to function properly without some tweaking. Cam swap + FI tuning is probably going to cost as much or more as just building an FI system to match what you have. Instead of ending up with a non-original lower hp solution, why not embrace that its not stock and build an FI system to match the motor you already have?

I also think the color is great by the way.

[porschetub]

do You have a complete and known working D Jet system for the 2L?

If not, and you’re considering paying someone to break the engine down and can swap (which will be a bunch of work and cost since the pushrods will have to be remade with the new geometry, etc), why not instead switch to a more modern EFI system? Even the simplistic system can be tuned to work with a ‘carb’ cam with little difference than an old FI grind. Cost may not be so different, and you won’t have to deal with old electronics. If you’re not too concerned about the stock look, Mario at the dub shop seems to have some pretty nice setups which aren’t too costly.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Fuel injection (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) over carbs, but I wouldn't spend the money to swap cams. I'd do as Jim suggests and build an FI system for the motor you have. You've noted that your motor isn't a stock 1.7 anymore, so the 1.7 FI system isn't going to function properly without some tweaking. Cam swap + FI tuning is probably going to cost as much or more as just building an FI system to match what you have. Instead of ending up with a non-original lower hp solution, why not embrace that its not stock and build an FI system to match the motor you already have?

I also think the color is great by the way.

Thought the OP had contacted the cam builder and was advised the cam wasn't suitable,or I read wrong ??? ,any decent engine builder could knock this over in less than a full billable day,then the OP only needs to get the MPS sorted or go to L-jet and considering he spent his money in 2008 on the build this could be an option for the extra cost of buying a working system.
It's just not that hard,carbs are like a new dog you train it to stay home but it will always wander.
Rant over ,good luck.

[dereknlee]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Fuel injection (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) over carbs, but I wouldn't spend the money to swap cams. I'd do as Jim suggests and build an FI system for the motor you have. You've noted that your motor isn't a stock 1.7 anymore, so the 1.7 FI system isn't going to function properly without some tweaking. Cam swap + FI tuning is probably going to cost as much or more as just building an FI system to match what you have. Instead of ending up with a non-original lower hp solution, why not embrace that its not stock and build an FI system to match the motor you already have?

I also think the color is great by the way.

This is an interesting idea you both bring up. I have read that to get the Djet to work with the bigger engine the MPS will need to be adjusted. But nothing I read on the board suggested that was a particularly expensive or difficult job. Is there going to be more to it than that? The dubshop kit is almost $3k, seems like for that much I could almost undo the engine changes and go bone stock.

[JamesM]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Fuel injection (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) over carbs, but I wouldn't spend the money to swap cams. I'd do as Jim suggests and build an FI system for the motor you have. You've noted that your motor isn't a stock 1.7 anymore, so the 1.7 FI system isn't going to function properly without some tweaking. Cam swap + FI tuning is probably going to cost as much or more as just building an FI system to match what you have. Instead of ending up with a non-original lower hp solution, why not embrace that its not stock and build an FI system to match the motor you already have?

I also think the color is great by the way.

This is an interesting idea you both bring up. I have read that to get the Djet to work with the bigger engine the MPS will need to be adjusted. But nothing I read on the board suggested that was a particularly expensive or difficult job. Is there going to be more to it than that? The dubshop kit is almost $3k, seems like for that much I could almost undo the engine changes and go bone stock.

The dubshop kit is a full system with induction which you wont need if you already have the d-jet manifold, throttle body, etc. ECU, wiring harness, crank sensor, possibly injectors are all you really need to convert d-jet to MS.

You never mentioned what d-jet setup you have, or what was done to convert your 1.7 to a 2.0 though. We know the current cam will be an issue with D-jet but there are other potential hiccups as well depending on the details. If you dont have a stock motor, and the correct matching d-jet system for that stock motor I probably wouldn't mess with d-jet. Im sure you can make it run, you might even make it run "ok".... I wouldn't expect more than that though.

[GregAmy]

Lots of good ideas.

I think Webers look sexy as hell...

I have read that to get the Djet to work with the bigger engine the MPS will need to be adjusted...

The dubshop kit is a full system with induction...

...and looks like "sexy" dual carbs.

If you still have the main D-Jet induction then you can build your own Microsquirt setup for under 2 grand:

https://tgadrivel.blogspot.com/2020/03/on-m...914-part-1.html


(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/cdn11.bigcommerce.com-15565-1587906164.1.jpg)

[dereknlee]

You never mentioned what d-jet setup you have, or what was done to convert your 1.7 to a 2.0 though. We know the current cam will be an issue with D-jet but there are other potential hiccups as well depending on the details. If you dont have a stock motor, and the correct matching d-jet system for that stock motor I probably wouldn't mess with d-jet. Im sure you can make it run, you might even make it run "ok".... I wouldn't expect more than that though.

Going from the build sheet: 96 mm pistons, DPR counterweighted crank M10/STD-4 (not sure what that means), reconditioned rods, 1800 modified heads 42 intake / 36 exhaust, 61 cc chamber with .060 deck, compression ratio of 8.05.

If you still have the main D-Jet induction then you can build your own Microsquirt setup for under 2 grand:

https://tgadrivel.blogspot.com/2020/03/on-m...914-part-1.html

Read through the entire blog post this morning. Very impressive work, and well written too!

At the beginning of the read I was on-board and thinking microsquirt is exactly what I should do. Then after a few pages in the magnitude of the project became evident. Obviously do-able, but from where I am at with a car in pieces it seems like piling on another big project. I agree that trying to make a 1960s technology do what it was never intended to makes no financial sense given the much better alternatives available. But being able to use the factory wire harness, components, diagrams, manuals to setup and maintain the vehicle carries a lot of weight. If that means I should seriously re-think installing this bigger engine in the car, or try to cobble together a factory 2.0 Djet system instead - then maybe that is what I should do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Bleyseng]

Me? I go the 2.0l engine with a Djet setup and buy a Raby cam (runs cooler/more hp) and toss/sell those Jerry heads as the valve seats fall out. Buy a set of real 2.0L heads from HAM.
Everything setup correctly and you be at 115-120HP vs max 95hp stock 2.0L

[JamesM]

You never mentioned what d-jet setup you have, or what was done to convert your 1.7 to a 2.0 though. We know the current cam will be an issue with D-jet but there are other potential hiccups as well depending on the details. If you dont have a stock motor, and the correct matching d-jet system for that stock motor I probably wouldn't mess with d-jet. Im sure you can make it run, you might even make it run "ok".... I wouldn't expect more than that though.

Going from the build sheet: 96 mm pistons, DPR counterweighted crank M10/STD-4 (not sure what that means), reconditioned rods, 1800 modified heads 42 intake / 36 exhaust, 61 cc chamber with .060 deck, compression ratio of 8.05.

If you still have the main D-Jet induction then you can build your own Microsquirt setup for under 2 grand:

https://tgadrivel.blogspot.com/2020/03/on-m...914-part-1.html

Read through the entire blog post this morning. Very impressive work, and well written too!

At the beginning of the read I was on-board and thinking microsquirt is exactly what I should do. Then after a few pages in the magnitude of the project became evident. Obviously do-able, but from where I am at with a car in pieces it seems like piling on another big project. I agree that trying to make a 1960s technology do what it was never intended to makes no financial sense given the much better alternatives available. But being able to use the factory wire harness, components, diagrams, manuals to setup and maintain the vehicle carries a lot of weight. If that means I should seriously re-think installing this bigger engine in the car, or try to cobble together a factory 2.0 Djet system instead - then maybe that is what I should do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

What is your ultimate end goal? Starting from where you are at currently, from a cost standpoint I suspect getting to a stock 2.0 L d-jet setup would probably cost you a good deal more than going megasquirt on your current engine given you would need 1. A stock 2.0 motor and 2. a 2.0 d-jet system, neither of which you currently have. the build sheet didnt specify what size the crank was, but with 96mm pistons you are most likely sitting with either a 1911 or a 2056 with modified 1.8 heads, didnt specify if they were converted to 3 stud or not but i would assume not, so you would be stuck starting with the 1.7 d-jet parts which will choke that motor.

Personally I would give up on the idea of d-jet with that current motor, I would only recommend tearing it down again to make it d-jet compatible if you like burning money for an engine with less performance.

Only 3 options i see that make sense here:

1. Run the carbs (I am not at all a fan of carbs but they are your easy button for sure here)
2. Run Megasquirt or some other aftermarket EFI
3. Buy a different engine.

[dereknlee]

What is your ultimate end goal? Starting from where you are at currently, from a cost standpoint I suspect getting to a stock 2.0 L d-jet setup would probably cost you a good deal more than going megasquirt on your current engine given you would need 1. A stock 2.0 motor and 2. a 2.0 d-jet system, neither of which you currently have. the build sheet didnt specify what size the crank was, but with 96mm pistons you are most likely sitting with either a 1911 or a 2056 with modified 1.8 heads, didnt specify if they were converted to 3 stud or not but i would assume not, so you would be stuck starting with the 1.7 d-jet parts which will choke that motor.

This will be a street car that I will just drive for fun. I'd like it to have more pep than a stock 1.7, but if push comes to shove I think I'd give that up for keeping the car original. I realize adding displacement to the motor isn't keeping it stock either, my mindset has shifted a bit in 8 years when I was less concerned about keeping it original (plus the heads were cracked and probably needed new pistons and cylinders anyway, so why not go bigger). My searches led me to believe that Djet would work on something as big as a 2056, with some adjustment. But I'm hearing that isn't the case for the 1.7L Djet. So now I have an even harder decision to make than when I started this thread.

Thanks all for the input!

-Derek

[bbrock]

I'm no expert on this but I know I've read several times that D-Jet is good up to a 2056 engine. I'm in a similar situation as you. Thirty years ago I got tired of being stranded by a worn out D-Jet system in my 73 2.0L. The engine was due for a rebuild anyway so I tore it down and rebuilt the bottom end bone stock except with Euro spec pistons and a carb cam to match a pair of Webers purchased at the same time. Life happened and 30 years later, I'm just now at the point of finishing what I started. If I started today, I would have refurbished the D-Jet but given I have the carbs and the cam is already installed, I'm going to run with them for awhile. Maybe I'll tear it down and swap cams at a later time but that is TBD.