Which route to take - original or show quality? Options

[gturner008]

Background. I have purchased a beauty. 1976, 39k mile, one owner, stunningly original car. Completely stock, original everything - never been painted and in perfect condition. Every detail is correct. Main dealer maintenance (19 services). No corrosion anywhere, even no surface rust on any fasteners - even under the car.

The car has the full rust treatment from new. Zeibart receipt from 1976. They really went to town. All the cavities wax treated, along with clear wax spray of the floor, and all underfloor moving parts. Engine and transmission coated in a thick wax coating.

The wheel wells were given a coating of black stone chip material.

With 39k miles, there is some stone chipping to the black undercoating, and you can see a few areas of the white paint showing. The engine underside is not pretty, given the thick wax coating. The suspension parts, front and rear, also don’t look new and shiny, because of the wax coating. Underneath the coatings, everything could be shiny and looking like new.

My question is, given I am detailing the car for shows and wanting to present the car in the best way possible, what route to take? Do I get everything as clean and fresh as I can - but leave the anti corrosion coatings in place? Or do I strip back all the coatings and get it to look pristine and factory new looking?

My instinct is the former. After all, this is how it left the selling dealer from new.

A nice problem to have, I know. I’m so lucky to have bought this absolutely lovely example. I don’t want to do something I later regret.

There’s that old saying. It’s only original once. I love the look of newly restored cars, where everything is shiny and new. But this isn’t a restored car. It’s original down to the last detail.

I’d really appreciate your views and opinions. Hope this makes sense. Thanks all.

[mepstein]

Unfortunately, With the Zeibart "treatment", holes were drilled all over the car and fitted with plugs. Not exactly original. Why not just make it the way you want. Show cars are sort of boring if all you do is take them to shows. Not to mention that there might not be any car shows for the next year or so.

[StarBear]

Yes, a very nice tough choice to have. Congratulations. From my personal experience as an original owner and nicely "preserved" not restored (albeit more like 117k miles), crowds and judges seldom appreciate originality, though I've never entered the more recently created class for such cars (don't recall the name; "Preserved"?). As other commenters over the years, most important is what gives YOU the joy - being able to drive your vehicle or trailering it to have others judge your vehicle. Me, I'm a driver... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)
Onward!

[Tom_T]

Background. I have purchased a beauty. 1976, 39k mile, one owner, stunningly original car. Completely stock, original everything - never been painted and in perfect condition. Every detail is correct. Main dealer maintenance (19 services). No corrosion anywhere, even no surface rust on any fasteners - even under the car.

The car has the full rust treatment from new. Zeibart receipt from 1976. They really went to town. All the cavities wax treated, along with clear wax spray of the floor, and all underfloor moving parts. Engine and transmission coated in a thick wax coating.

The wheel wells were given a coating of black stone chip material.

With 39k miles, there is some stone chipping to the black undercoating, and you can see a few areas of the white paint showing. The engine underside is not pretty, given the thick wax coating. The suspension parts, front and rear, also don’t look new and shiny, because of the wax coating. Underneath the coatings, everything could be shiny and looking like new.

My question is, given I am detailing the car for shows and wanting to present the car in the best way possible, what route to take? Do I get everything as clean and fresh as I can - but leave the anti corrosion coatings in place? Or do I strip back all the coatings and get it to look pristine and factory new looking?

My instinct is the former. After all, this is how it left the selling dealer from new.

A nice problem to have, I know. I’m so lucky to have bought this absolutely lovely example. I don’t want to do something I later regret.

There’s that old saying. It’s only original once. I love the look of newly restored cars, where everything is shiny and new. But this isn’t a restored car. It’s original down to the last detail.

I’d really appreciate your views and opinions. Hope this makes sense. Thanks all.

G -

First - you should talk to some PCA judges in your Toronto area & check their rules in your PCA Region & Zone, for the specifics of what I say below.

My comments are from the PCA Zone 8 Concours perspective (which covers all Regions within Central & SoCal, So. Nevada, Arizona), with our rules - which many other PCA areas also use to develop their rules. They are similar to, but differ from the PCA National Parade rules - so look at the specifics there too. Likewise, if you're doing other organizations' Concours, then look to their rules.

That said - Originality is separate from "show quality" in both our Z8 & Parade respects - as it relates to how much of the car is original in order to qualify for a certain class of other original cars - as opposed to competing with restored cars. For our Z8 - a car must be 25 years old & 75% original paint & 75% original interior to qualify for our Preservation Division.

While Parade does judge cars for Originality in those classes (although sometimes not as exactly as whether the car has a dealer radio or Zeibart).

Whereas - once "qualified" for "Preservation Div. in Zone 8 - we judge all cars in all Divisions the same for cleanliness, detailing, maintenance & presentation.

Your Zone 1 is the same area for both NE Canada, as for NE USA States, & your Zone 1 Rules may be similar or different.

https://www.pca.org/region-directory?field_zone_tid=450

.

Whereas, "show quality" which you mention is related to your cleaning, detailing, preparation, maintenance, & presentation & who did it best.

So you can do a show car preparation etc. either with the Zeibart, or after removing it all (see the Sahara Beige one in the O&H nailed thread "The few, the rare ..." which Steve did remove all of the coating, which was a huge job).

IMHO removing or not is a personal choice, since it was as delivered by the dealer when new, serves/served an important function preventing rust & stone chip damage, & it can be clean-up as well as the texture of the paint over the factory paint over "schutz" chip protector under the belly & wheel wells paint - but a bit more textured though, so it may be more work to clean the nooks & crannies.

Another challenge may be how clean you can get the 44 year old wax coatings on the various suspension parts etc., since it will tend to catch the road grime & hold it, & cleaning will take it off.

I don't think that any experienced Zone 8 judge would deduct points for having the Zeibart, but may for not getting it pristine, since it's essentially a "cleaning contest" here.

If you were to remove it, then you'd also have to deal with sealing off the plethora of plugs used to inject tie inner wax everywhere, as Mark mentioned.

I'd suggest that you try just doing a really deep detailing & prep as you're leaning to first, then take it to a Zone 1 or other Concours & enter it, & get feedback from the more senior judges there, as to how it presents & scores there. It may only be do a little more here & there, or they may fell the full strip-off is better.

However, you're living in the Salty Roads Rust Belt, & even if you park it all winter, you still can pick up serious salt on a rainy road during an early Spring drive, before it's all washed away. So a coated/protected car would be better if you plan to drive it any amount.

Personally, I like the dark/black look of the wheel wells with the Zeibart etc. undercoatings, especially on lighter & medium color 914s.

My `73 2L had Zeibart as well (even sold new here in SoCal), but I have way more miles & far less pristine body work & parts - so no question on mine.

Bottom line - it's your choice & your preference, & whether you really want to show it seriously a lot up there & at Parade (2021 or ?? due to COVID).

But it's really NOT fair to just talk about your pristine 914 without pix, & you should also post pix inside, underside, & outside in that "The few, the rare..." topic for reference to others trying to restore their to original.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=101921

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png) &
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/thisthreadisworthlesswithoutpics.gif)

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[gturner008]

Thank you so much for the detailed response. I really appreciate it.

I’ll take photos - as I’m working through the detailing and cleaning process. The one owner really took care and cherished the car. A lady owner who has the car from new. I’ve actually been emailing her - and she has offered to scan and email me photos from her time with the car.

One other interesting question.

The car looks like it was the dealer principal’s car for a few weeks. First registration was to the dealer (Century Motors). The dealer added on the doors a round 914 decal. Like a racing sticker.

These are on the car now. I could remove, but worry and paint fade on the door. It’s ivory white - and may be slightly yellow compared with what’s underneath.

My instinct is to leave the decal - as it came from the dealer. But a tough call. Any thoughts?

I’ll take those photos and post up.

[Tom_T]

Thank you so much for the detailed response. I really appreciate it.

I’ll take photos - as I’m working through the detailing and cleaning process. The one owner really took care and cherished the car. A lady owner who has the car from new. I’ve actually been emailing her - and she has offered to scan and email me photos from her time with the car.

One other interesting question.

The car looks like it was the dealer principal’s car for a few weeks. First registration was to the dealer (Century Motors). The dealer added on the doors a round 914 decal. Like a racing sticker.

These are on the car now. I could remove, but worry and paint fade on the door. It’s ivory white - and may be slightly yellow compared with what’s underneath.

My instinct is to leave the decal - as it came from the dealer. But a tough call. Any thoughts?

I’ll take those photos and post up.

I'd say - unless you like it - it may be better for the car's overall looks to remove the decal, but that's a hard call without a pic of it. So .....

I can't think of any round 914 decals from back in the day like that, & I was in dealers a lo in 72-75 looking at new 73 - 76 MY 914s (a college classmate had a new 73 2L from rich parents), & test drove several new 75 & 76 914-2.0s before buying my 3 year old 73 2L in Dec. `75. Maybe they were a Canadian or Toronto thing?

... or is it just a big racing/AX number roundel? If so, then maybe the dealer principal/employee tracked it or did AX. You may be able to run that initial history down via the dealer if they're still around, with any old timers still available.

Fortunately, that L80E light Ivory is pretty resistant to discoloration/fading over time - even under the 4 layers of repaints on mine! So the decal may not have any shadow or yellowing, or if little then it may be able to be buffed out.

If you're uncomfortable with removing the decal yourself, then talk to a local Concours prep guy/gal near you to remove & maybe also check paint depth & do the full car paint prep for Concours, so you have a good start (clay bar, etc. to get all to issues out, & air brush out any small dings, etc.). Get a recco from some local Concours guys for who they recco,& look in your local Toronto PCA Region's magazine for Pro Detailers.

But .... if you plan to race or AX the 914, then just leave them on.

PS - Despite the Anthracite Grey Metallic (930 color) in the avatar pic, mine was originally L80E, & will go back to it in my resto.

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[gturner008]

Here is the decal on the car. I’m 50/50 on keeping or removing.

It was applied by the selling dealer back in 1976.

[ValcoOscar]

Can you tell what I think (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Oscar

[Tom_T]

Here is the decal on the car. I’m 50/50 on keeping or removing.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-24163-1588184317_thumb.jpg)

It was applied by the selling dealer back in 1976.

The yellowing in that 914 roundel number decal may just be the vinyl decal - not the paint.

It's your choice, but on mine I plan to add the 3 stripe PORSCHE script at the sills - so I wouldn't keep it on mine, but it's your car & your choice.

If you keep it on, then just touch-up the scratch on the lower "9" with a black sharpie (& any others). Black sharpie is also an indispensable Concoursing tool to touch up scratches on any other scratches on black parts while at the event, so keep one in your kit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Ad showing early positive decal script stripe, supplied by dealers also -


For your `76 it could also be the 74-76 MY negative script stripe decal -

> Note that the per the decals' instructions & lengths, those stripes should run fully to the wheel wells & wrap into each - as in the top one, & not cut short as above. IMHO it doesn't visually lower the car as much as shown above.

IMHO - the stripes - along with the black rockers - make 914s look lower & sportier visually.

They both came in black, white, silver & several colors, but I like black on L80E cars.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[mepstein]

I wouldn't touch the decal for a while. Live with the car and after 6 months, a year, whatever, you might have a strong opinion of yea or nea. There are oftentimes small things about a car that aren't considered "right" but make it special.

[gturner008]

That’s good advice. The original owner is going to scan in and send me photos from her ownership. That’ll be great to see. Nice to build a little bit of history on the car.

I’ll leave the decals in place for now.

[Tom_T]

I wouldn't touch the decal for a while. Live with the car and after 6 months, a year, whatever, you might have a strong opinion of yea or nea. There are oftentimes small things about a car that aren't considered "right" but make it special.

I agree, this car is very new to you.

Also, Dave P is one of the few on here in your area who has a good chance to see your 914 in person. Probably with one of these on it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[914Next]

Here is the decal on the car. I’m 50/50 on keeping or removing.

It was applied by the selling dealer back in 1976.

Congrats on what seems to be a very nice car! I'm highly biased since I love survivors but I would take Mepsteins advice and leave it for 6-12 months. If it were me I wouldn't touch that decal. It's part of the history of the car. All too often these are removed to make it more "original". I had a survivor mustang on which the owner had originally installed an ugly green plexiglass bug screen and curb feelers. I took them off and threw them away. Later regretted throwing those ugly things away as I loved them as part of the history of that car. Check out the link in my signature for my original '73. And consider documenting the car for us. You'll enjoy it and we'll enjoy reading.

Steve

[gturner008]

Will do Steve.

The car has an interesting history. One owner - same lady, kept in wonderful condition.

I’ve been promised early photos - and more history.

I’m going to keep the decals. I’m also going to detail the car as a survivor. Keeping with the original Zeibart anti corrosion protection. Does not look pretty, but it is what it looked like when it was delivered new.

I decided I don’t want to buff it up like new - but try to get it to look like as it was when it was first delivered.

Make sense?

Gary

[914Next]

Will do Steve.

The car has an interesting history. One owner - same lady, kept in wonderful condition.

I’ve been promised early photos - and more history.

I’m going to keep the decals. I’m also going to detail the car as a survivor. Keeping with the original Zeibart anti corrosion protection. Does not look pretty, but it is what it looked like when it was delivered new.

I decided I don’t want to buff it up like new - but try to get it to look like as it was when it was first delivered.

Make sense?

Gary

Makes sense to me. My car was undercoated when new. I was tempted to spend hours cleaning all of it off but I've left it on and am glad I did. Enjoy the car. Looking forward to more pics and info.

[Tom_T]

Will do Steve.

The car has an interesting history. One owner - same lady, kept in wonderful condition.

I’ve been promised early photos - and more history.

I’m going to keep the decals. I’m also going to detail the car as a survivor. Keeping with the original Zeibart anti corrosion protection. Does not look pretty, but it is what it looked like when it was delivered new.

I decided I don’t want to buff it up like new - but try to get it to look like as it was when it was first delivered.

Make sense?

Gary

Hi Gary -

Yes, it absolutely does. The original 914 paint had a slight orange peel to it from the factory, so an over working of the paint would remove it.

Pat Garvey - our original O&H moderator had talked about it on here many times, & had gone as far as to have the painter for the repaint of his back in the 80s - 90s (??) do the orange peel.

While I didn't know that detail back on my own 2 color changed repaints of mine, I would not recommend changing it nor over working the paint on an original survivor. When I mentioned above about a pro detailer checking & doing a deep clean-up, I was not recommending taking the paint down to smooth (you don't want to lose that much paint anyway).

Also, the L80E Light Ivory on yours is one of the best colors for not oxidizing, while reds like Steve's 73 & my buddy Jerry's 71 in "The few, the rare..." topic is one of the worst for oxidizing due to the pigments used in the paints. The condition of both of their original Bahia Red 914s is a testament to long term careful care.

As I said on the 914 roundel decal, live with it for a while at least, before deciding, but there is nothing wrong with keeping it permanently IMHO. Just be careful with polishes & other product on top & at the edges, because they can mar the printing, as well as build up at the edges of the decal - which looks bad & will get points dinged in our PCA Zone 8 Concours.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[gturner008]

Thanks Tom. Great advice.

Today I started the exterior body work. Parts are taking forever - so just moving through the list.

My car has pretty distinct orange peel. The ivory white has held up very well. Virtually no yellowing at all. I put this down to the car being garaged all it’s life. Not a lot of direct sunlight. The rubber and dash, for example, or like new. No degradation at all.

I’m light machine polishing, fine grade. Then applying polish, then ceramic coating. It’s looking good, keeping the orange peel in place.

There are a few stone chips, which were touched in during the past. I’m 2000 grit sanding to remove the over paint. I’ll then retouch and wet sand and buff. It’ll look a lot better than what’s there now.

It’s a slow process, but I feel like I’m getting there. Been at it for 11 days now - 7 hrs per day. I know it’s nothing compared to the brave folks on this site tackling major restorations of cars. My car needs a different sort of work. Close attention to details - trying to keep it original and survivor class.

I’ll post more pictures up soon. Thanks again.

[Tom_T]

Thanks Tom. Great advice.

Today I started the exterior body work. Parts are taking forever - so just moving through the list.

My car has pretty distinct orange peel. The ivory white has held up very well. Virtually no yellowing at all. I put this down to the car being garaged all it’s life. Not a lot of direct sunlight. The rubber and dash, for example, or like new. No degradation at all.

I’m light machine polishing, fine grade. Then applying polish, then ceramic coating. It’s looking good, keeping the orange peel in place.

There are a few stone chips, which were touched in during the past. I’m 2000 grit sanding to remove the over paint. I’ll then retouch and wet sand and buff. It’ll look a lot better than what’s there now.

It’s a slow process, but I feel like I’m getting there. Been at it for 11 days now - 7 hrs per day. I know it’s nothing compared to the brave folks on this site tackling major restorations of cars. My car needs a different sort of work. Close attention to details - trying to keep it original and survivor class.

I’ll post more pictures up soon. Thanks again.

Gary -

Think on that Ceramic though - it may make it too shiny & make the orange peel stand out too much. I'd say go old school polish & a good Carnuba Wax, since they were made for our old school paints.

Also, if you're wanting to update your audio while preserving the vintage radio, Woody's Customs here in SoCal offers bluetooh & USB/3.5mm adapters, uder seat/behind seat speakers which can run wires under the carpet & place the flat speakers under or behind the seats inconspicuously (removed for show if you want also).

https://www.woodyscustomshop.com/online-store/

It sounds like you're approaching it the right way.

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[gturner008]

Thanks Tom

I applied the polish. Paint looks good. The ceramic coating didn’t make it come up too shiny. No major difference is in gloss level. Just a richer colour if anything.

I’ll attach a couple of photos.

G

[gturner008]

Picture